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For those who like "Epic Meltdown"

Discussion in 'The RedBanned Bar & Grill' started by Doug Gibson, Aug 29, 2019.

  1. I agree that it seems the overall quality of scores has declined from say, the 90's. I still think there are some great scores out there, but they do seem to occur a bit less frequently.
    As far as Brian Tyler, I always consider the movies he usually scores, which in my opinion are not often good... However, I enjoy some of his stuff like Frailty, or Now You See me 2, Theme to Yellowstone, and Crazy Rich Asians theme.
    But again, in terms of the state of film scoring, yeah I think we're in a bit of a lull overall.
  2. Brian Tyler used to be among my favorite composers, but Mike and redbanned ruined my appreciation for that style to quite some degree. Iirc for the Expendables 2 or 3 Soundtrack he said he had 1 week to compose it. One week... I'm willing to cut him lots of slack if those are the conditions he and others are working under. It's sad all around. I'm sure he'd love to spend more time and do cooler stuff, but ultimately he probably likes more to get well paid. I can understand that as well.
    George Streicher likes this.
  3. I wouldn't say modern media is devoid of interesting scores, but I doubt that anything has been written in the last 10 years in film that will land a place among the greats of film, but there are scores that I like. I still often find games more interesting in this regard -- a wider variety of palettes, and the nature of game scoring often means people write complete pieces with coinciding themes. They're often less ambitious in terms of scope and scale, but that's precisely why I like them more -- they play out like a nuanced album, rather than someone attempting to control an orchestra.

    Haven't heard any of Tyler's older stuff. The issue isn't more the specific composer at hand, but the amount of praise they get. The fact that arguably the most popular/"top" Hollywood composers have little in the way of classically-competent knowledge, skill or ability is really the issue (and let's be frank -- creativity as well, in many cases. The repetitious nature of many scores isn't exactly breaking boundaries).

    Hard to blame a guy for having difficult churning out a noteworthy score in a week. The choice is ultimately his, though, and all it's doing is feeding the downfall of creative competence in Hollywood.
    George Streicher likes this.
  4. Done! He edited his post and the other one deleted his post. Sorry I waited so long. I thought surely someone else from here would have already messaged him and I didn't want him to get swarmed with redundant mails.

    That's true :-/.
    Rohann van Rensburg likes this.
  5. Thanks !

    Hey, aren't we connected on PM?

    Just sent you one
    Martin Hoffmann likes this.
  6. #46 Alexander Schiborr, Sep 23, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
    From goldsmith to this.. jeez,someone please kick Kim Kardashian out of the scoring stage. :confused: Any thoughts?

  7. Oh my god. At 0:30 nobody's playing, the musicians are all watching the screen. Dude is passionately directing on the stand. Happens again at the 2 minute mark. They took a photo, added motion to it and just edited him in directing, it looks weird as fuck. At 2:21 it's time to go BLASTISSIMO ON THAT NON AUDIBLE OSTINATO MY DUDES! I also like how he directs the sound design at the end. Also, doesn't he stripe his sections like 99% of these guys?

    Still, the dude's got a Ferrari so what the fuck do I know?
    Alexander Schiborr likes this.
  8. #48 Martin Hoffmann, Sep 23, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2019
    Looking forward to see the movie on netflix one day :).

    I'm wondering how much Wiskey Mike needs to hold an "Epic Trailer Music Masterclass" on April 1st. I'm thinking the first hour is just rants and fast paced drinking to get in the mood, and then 2 hours of composing and orchestrating similar to "Orchestration 3", but with more focus on how to write percussion parts for this kind of music and his thought process about how best to fill out the frequency spectrum through orchestration.
    He's touched on it briefly in Orchestration 3 and Rythm and Percussion I think, but I could do with way more examples and more focus on "sensible" vertical development within the confines of the genre and writing melodies for it.

    That's no photo, they are blinking. This promo stuff is probably all outsourced to some company making these videos for him.
    Alexander Schiborr likes this.
  9. #49 Alexander Schiborr, Sep 24, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
    What is netflix?

    Okay..joke aside. Is he going to do a masterclass on epic music? I remember he had that section in orchestration 3 where he stacked things on top of each other which sums up that subject at least for me: Its a tiny tiny tiny bit of development, so called vertical packing which is nothing wrong to do but when this is your only trick in your pocket then you end up repeating yourself doing blasting horns with boring string ostinatos and boring loopy sound percussion like a B. Tyler. God forgive me that kid with his ferrari. Who said that? Mauro? Hej Mauro, I remember John Carmack of ID Software had one too back in the 90s, but he had some damn skill and coded 1 million lines for Doom. Tyler was even that lazy to use more or less the same percussion loop over and over again for the whole theme. That theme sums it up: It´s lazy and boring at the same time and its the main theme for a movie franchise of that scale. Unfucking believable, isn´t it? And there I am again with tha quote of JXL that his theme has so much of a vibe of Scriabin. Are these guys all in total denial about what they do? I am curious how these guys feel when they look into the mirror. Ok, the paycheck is surerly great and so they can get some ferraris and be the cool guys driving a sportscar..maybe that impress some kids. (not talking about you mauro..I know you meant it as a joke) :D

    PS: The best comments on YT:

    "Jerry would be proud Brian! Cannot wait to watch the movie and hear your brilliant score"
    "Brian Tyler you did it!! Again! Thank you soo much for you great music! This soundtrack is incredible! ❤️"
    "It's really wonderful to feel touches of Jerry Goldsmith's theme in this one. You took something great and made it your own."
    "Damn this is awesome B! Love how u wnhanced Goldsmiths score from the first movies and also reminds me of a slight Battle Los Angeles/Expendables. Which is awesome!"
    "Stunning , amazing and wowwwww ..LEGENDs together"
    "my god... My God... MY GOD!!! Your Scores— nonono, your Masterpieces get better and better!"
    "Both a powerful original theme worthy of Rambo, and honorable tribute to Goldsmith's legacy."

    this one is also great:

    "Brian Tyler needs to do the score for The Matrix 4. WB's executives, please hire him!" --> consquence: Shitty Matrix score.
    It hurts simply to read all of that that. But that is what also sums it up. All that uneducated sheeps even think that this is as good as what Goldsmith did.:confused:

    There are just a few comments by people who seem to see through that humbug with all that blink blink and see the true character of that very flawed attempt.
    Mauro Pantin likes this.
  10. He had more than one Ferrari and I think he once donated one as a price for a Quake or Doom championship.

    Yeah, probably best not to. Although it is fairly easy to open peoples eyes to "it's just vertical development". Even if they aren't musicians/composers. I used to quite like his music, but Mike and redbanned kinda ruined it for me. Still like the work of Hans though. The COD MW2 soundtrack is full of catchy melodies imho.
    Alexander Schiborr likes this.
  11. @Alexander Schiborr well, it is his YT channel. So the comments are bound to be mostly positive. I'm guessing that if you took a poll on a wider sample the results would be different, depending on the audience. But it is a good sample of the target that current film scoring (and film in general) businesses are aiming at. You know what is the highest grossing movie here in Argentina, historically? Fast and the Furious 7. Second highest? Fast and the Furious 8. That shallow attention span will buy a lot of expensive cars.

    I remember seeing him in "Score: A film music documentary". He goes to see a movie he scored because, allegedly, he does that often to look at people's reactions to the film, rather than the film itself. He then proceeds to tell us that he hides in the bathroom to see if anybody is whistling a theme from the movie.

    I'm going to go on a limb here and say instagram is probably his favorite social network.
  12. #52 Alexander Schiborr, Sep 24, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
    Carmack deserved more than one Ferrari. However Tyler doesn´t deserve imo even working with a live orchestra because he doesn´t respect the orchestral players at all and simply tortures them with his exhausting repetitive nonsense. Isn´t it? omg..I should stop. I dont´want to give the impression of an old grumpy cat :D (maybe I am..)
    Wow, didn´t know that. Well, I didn´t saw fast furious 7/8 or any other of that franchise but the things I saw, I simply can´t watch such movies. How are these movies? I guess the recipe is fast cars, cool guys, some hookas and super dialogue scenes with oscar hit acting, right? :D

    Tyler on the toilet? Yeah..there he belongs but not because I want to whistle his themes. I just rewatched the Rambo theme again and I find also his overly coolness and serious manners totally misplaced. Hes acting like a douche there trying to be super sophisticated. Okay..
    I promise I stop now.. and listen to Dougs Zen Music.
    Martin Hoffmann and Mauro Pantin like this.
  13. Alexander, I think we (redbanned members) should all chip in and buy you an autographed 8x10 headshot of Brian Tyler for you birthday or something ;)

    Also, there's nothing wrong with old grumpy cats!
  14. That is hysterical. He deserves to be ridiculed. Not a nice person.

    I think I shared this story here before.

    I was having beers with Tim Davies (he has a blog on orchestration a lot of people read) and he told me about a session working with B.T.
    One of the viola charts was fully notated in treble clef. One of the viola players asked if they had been given the right part as usually, they read in another clef. (although they can read in treble clef) For whatever reason our hero B.T replied "Oh, that's notated in studio clef" o_O
    Mauro Pantin likes this.
  15. You know..this actually does point to an interesting question: How much is the conductor needed?
    The musicians all are on a click track and don't need someone counting for them.

    Of course, a real conductor brings much more to the table so to speak.
    Mauro Pantin and Martin Hoffmann like this.
  16. Definitely!

    Thanks, that cracked me up! :D

    He's absolutely needed... for the making of video... and someone has to tell the musicians to play LOUDER!

    Iirc Mike mentioned on multiple occasions that some of the musicians said they just play to the click and ignore the conductor on this kind of session.

    I can't tell whether Brian's looks around 4:30 are saying "wtf am I doing here..." or an expression of fear, or straight up insanity or whatever, but he doesn't look relaxed at all to me. Something seems off.

    The way these things are made really has me shaking my head on many levels. The time pressure, the temp music, the "I don't care about specifics, I'll hear the final soundtrack in the theater" attitude...

    But - when I watched that movie years ago I liked it, and I liked the soundtrack, and I listened to the soundtrack on spotify afterwards. I'm not so sure that without all the stuff Brian and Hans composed I'd be talking to you guys right now. This stuff all played its part in interesting me in "orchestral colors" in music, and led me closer to the rabbithole that is composing orchestral music. Taste evolves and that doesn't always have to be for the worse.
  17. Yikes... I think the true mark of a Pro like Tim (I read his blog often) is having a great poker face for exactly moments like that.

    If he does not know the proper clefs, what is he reading while he conducts? Just the time sigs?

    It depends on the conductor. I'm sure some of them can be replaced with a click track and are up there on the stand just for the ego boost. There's a great book by Gustav Meier on the subject. Conducting is such an ethereal and complex part of the music making process, it seems intimidating and like too big of a responsibility to just casually do it without knowing your shit.
  18. I don't understand why even bothering using a live orchestra for this stuff. In the end you can't even tell the difference because it's all mixed in with samples and layers upon layers of other shit on top. Plus it's so so expensive, I'd say keep the money and buy another Ferrari :)
    Rohann van Rensburg likes this.
  19. #59 Alexander Schiborr, Sep 25, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2019
    I remember that story with the studio clef, I have cubase studio advanced clef (I don´t know the fuck what that means but I think it can impress some people) :D I think that the players would probably even do a better job without him. When I watch that video here, I see (at least my impression) total boredom and depression in their faces.

    And that piece would also work as same good or bad for the Rambo last blood movie. I mean all of his material which I heard has only that three elements: repetitive boring string ostinatos playing at mf or forte or blasting FF, repetitive boring drum loops from Action Strikes, exhausting loud brass. When someone like him can make it that high in the foodchain there then it sais a lot about the current hollywood mentality of directors and producers and people who hire these chaps. But man, if Sylvester Stallone was impressed, so I have to like it...I like Sly, but he should not hire monkeys to score his movies.

    So any idea how long this crap will last? Are we going to have another 10 years of the same BT and Junk Food going on? I am not sure but I wonder when does that illness stop? Will it ever stop? I have my doubts actually. We are now in 2019 and for over a decade that trope is dominating the market, not only in films, in commercials, in cooking shows, in reality tv, even in documentaries. I can´t see a fucking documentary without getting chased by that crap music. And I don´t see any end coming really. Is that the ultimate finish line? Is society deaf on their ears? Or is it just me again who is not able to go with the times? Maybe it is. Maybe not. My wife hates that shit too and we both watch 40s movies - 80s movies where we don´t get chased by this music.

    I leave that interview here, which was uploaded a few days ago. It´s so much of what defines real classy people and sets them apart from that ferrari driving chaps. Tune in at 2:00 minutes ..that is what I call absolute classy attitude even coming from a titan like John Williams.

    Now back to my kent hewitt studies..(great man btw..)
  20. I think the trend will change if, and only if, people reach higher standards of education in music. The standard has to be raised. But the issue with that is that it is part of a bigger problem, imho. The way we are teaching people is ancient at this point and in dire need of reform. A broader discussion is needed there.

    But for music, just look at the billboard top 40 or top 100 for a taste of the musical education most people have. I listen to it once every 3-4 months just to get a thumb on the pulse of the average joe. The music people listen to the most is absolute garbage. Most of the time it is lacking in either melody or harmony. Rhythm is the only common denominator, and it is just variations on the same type of beat for the most part. Melodic profficiency is almost non-existant. It is all very, very primitive. Recorded, produced, mixed and mastered to a very high standard, but in terms of musicianship it is absolute utter bullshit. Not only that, but those songs are written with these trends and patterns and hooks in mind, they are aiming for that target because they know people can't get enough of this crap. Have a look at "hit songs deconstructed". This shit's engineered now.

    The same thing is happening in film music. 3 or 4 "epic" chord progressions, horns a12, a percussion loop, ostinati and a woodwind section reserved for the runs you include when you want to sound like williams without putting in the work.

    How do you stop people from consuming such crap? They have to know there is something better, goes back to Plato's "Allegory of the cave", it's simple as that. Education.

    I saw the JW interview as well, and though the same thing on the NFL comment. The guy is as charming as he is humble.

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