Breathing

Yes, this is true but also the embouchure gets extremely tired as well! Without rest, it will become difficult to keep it firm.

 

Yes, this is correct to some extent. The quieter sections will require (somewhat) less air since the embouchure will let less air into the instrument.

Dynamics/Range do not affect this however and should remain the same. I'm a clarinetist myself and it took me quite a bit of time (and professors) to
understand this fact.

 

Sorry if it wasn't clear: this cup of coffee on a stretched out arm was a metapher for the brass embouchure. People who don't play brass instruments can hardly imagine how hard it can be. The stretched out arm effect is known to everyone. Playing brass notes, especially the higher ones, needs lip tension. They can keep that for a while but need to relax the mouth muscles after playing for a while.

 

I see what you're saying, you know it was actually making me think about the handful of times I've tried to play a brass instrument messing around it made my lips itch, I can imagine someone's face going numb or something ridiculous

However your description makes me want to quote a certain line from The Rocky Horror Picture Show commentary

 

"Breathing"?

How about learning about PHRASING?

 

AND the REST of YOU learning about MUSIC, for REAL, instead of just trying to IMITATE IT, because YOU were NEVER raised with MUSIC or the related instruments, in the FIRST PLACE??????????

How about that?

ALL of the SAMPLE LIBS will NOT help YOU!

Get THAT much RIGHT!

I don't GIVE A SHIT, that MOST of YOU, don't know WHAT THE FUCK YOU REFER TO!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I use a WX-5 for all my winds and brass, and I'm just beginning to use a TEController for strings. For the winds and brass, I can't get closer to the real sound without the WX-5. I may work for 12 hours at a time, but I'm not using a wind controller the entire time. My process is to sketch first and then perform the parts. But if your process involves performing as you compose (and you're worried about hyperventilating) , and you use something like the modwheel or a pedal, I'd recommend you look at some breath data from someone who uses a wind or breath controller. One of the key concepts about playing a wind instrument or bowing a stringed instrument is that you are putting pressure (wind or bow) on something to create a sound or get louder, and releasing pressure to get softer or end a phrase. These are two different actions: creating pressure and releasing pressure. Captured electronically, it creates a certain attack curve at the beginning of a phrase, and creates a different kind of curve near the end of a phrase. With a modwheel or pedal, you're using the same kind of pressure for all dynamics, just in different directions. A more appropriate device might be something like a pitch-bend wheel, where you put pressure in one direction and then release the pressure to return to the original state. If you look at breath data from an EWI performance, the curves can look pretty extreme. And it can seem counterintuitive when you're using a modwheel, because you find yourself moving it quickly when you're getting softer, or even just ending a phrase. I'd recommend the wind/breath controllers for winds/brass (and even strings, even though the breath-to-bow is more analogous than accurate), but if not that, check out the data just to see what it looks like. It doesn't look anything like a neat board fade. And then, of course, use your ears.

 

Whoa, calm down mate. We're all friends here.

I think you're missing the point of this place.

Not everyone here had the chance to get musical education, or to work with live players. But everyone here wants to get better at writing music. There are people posting here with accolades and experience I can only dream of having one day, answering beginner questions while materially standing to gain very little to nothing.

If all you have is condescension, I don't think you're gonna have a very good time here.

 

I use the thumb trick too. It's not perfect, but it's a starting point.

My gut feeling is that Mike's points about tiers of orchestration knowledge can also be applied to instrumentation. Level one might be learning how often a player needs to breathe, level two is realising how much air is needed for certain ranges of each instrument, and level three could be how quickly certain ranges fatigue the performer due to lip-pressure on the mouthpiece. In a past life I played the trumpet and hitting a lot of high notes certainly takes a toll on the lips...and the teeth for that matter.

 

I'm not sure how many people in this forum play wind instruments, so I might be able to contribute some information specific to them. Trumpet is my main instrument (or was when I still had time for the upkeep of the instrument), and I'm also a band director - so I deal primarily with wind instruments and percussion. There are 2 main issues dealing with the length of time an instrument can sustain playing, air resistance and air volume.

The more resistance an instrument has, the longer the player can sustain a pitch or phrase on that instrument. Instruments with less resistance will run out of air more quickly. The same is true for volume of air - less volume can be sustained for a longer period of time than more volume. All wind instruments can be sustained the longest in the middle of their range. As instruments descend into the lower range of their instruments, the volume of air needed increases. As wind instruments ascend into their upper register they use less air, but the air speed needs to increase, so they still run out air more quickly. The volume of the music also a large effect on the length of sustain due to the volume of air used - louder music cannot be sustained as long as soft music.

In general, the bass instruments of brass and woodwinds will run out of air the quickest, except for flute - they have no air resistance. Next the tenor instruments will run out of air, and the alto and soprano instruments are pretty close. All serious performers work on breathing to be ready for anything that comes their way, but.... everyone's gotta breathe sometime.

From my experience the length of sustain generally has three tiers:

First to run out
Flute
Tuba
Bass Clarinet
Bari Sax

Second to run out
Trombones
Baritones/Euphoniums
Bassoons
Tenor Sax

Last to run out
Oboe
Clarinet
Trumpet
French Horn
Alto Sax

 

@Arne Barnard

Please don't view this as a criticism, I'm just trying to help you. I feel compelled to help because I teach for a living.

The most common technique I've ever seen used amongst string and piano teachers to teach the concept of phrasing, or improve a specific element of phrasing, is breathing. If it's used to teach this same concept to people with the background you are talking about, why not use it for composition?

Don't get hung up on how people got here. A professor once shared a story with our ensemble when I was in college about a professional Orchestra he was in at the time. During a rehearsal, they were asked to play the birthday song for someone at a performance later the same night. They had no sheet music and were asked. The majority of them could not figure out the melody by ear. These were all "classically trained musicians" who performed for a living, who were unable to figure out a basic melody they've heard since childhood. I'd say something like this is far more telling of someone's musicianship than their specific background.

 

I think the remarkably constructive and civil response to an outburst I (and likely others) have no context for is a testament to this community. Proud to be a part of it, to whatever degree.

 

That's really quite remarkable. I'm not sure how exactly that would be difficult, it took me all of 10 seconds after reading this to figure it out on piano and I'm miles away from being able to transcribe things quickly.

 

It's easier for older people because they heard the thing more often.

 

Dude has to be trolling. He has some similar style post on VIC. It is kind of funny, but who knows - it is the internet, maybe it's not a joke. I MEAN a JOKE lol

 

Also: I'm still enamoured by the fact that when I click on random threads here, I tend to learn really useful things, rather than simply hopping into mediocre discussion, bickering, or VI chat (there's a time and place for VI stuff, but it's not all the time).

I really hope the atmosphere of desiring excellence in craft continues here!