1. Didja accidentally blow through the whole, "We're using our real names" thing on registration? No problem, just send me (Mike) a Conversation message and I'll get you sorted, by which I mean hammered-into-obedient-line because I'm SO about having a lot of individuality-destroying, oppressive shit all over my forum.
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For those who like "Epic Meltdown"

Discussion in 'The RedBanned Bar & Grill' started by Doug Gibson, Aug 29, 2019.

  1. #1 Doug Gibson, Aug 29, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2019
    @Alexander Schiborr: Thanks for being such a good friend !

    SUMMARY OF MY VI-Control meltdown

    VI-C person was, trolling me with "I see how you teach. I personally don't teach like, and don't like teachers that do. But hey if it works for you."

    So I look up trolls website:

    XYZ is a multi-award winning composer and musician,
    as well as a music consultant, "Editor at DesigningMusicNOW," and 2016 winner of the prestigious CINE Marvin Hamlisch Award.

    next page;
    I am an Editor at DesigningMusicNOW.com. The founder, Dale Crowley, and I primarily focus on reviewing sample libraries and networking with their devolopers. We create in-depth reviews that include video walkthroughs and custom demos

    My latest review was ...........

    If you have a library you would like me to review, please send me an email over at


    Click onto his soundcloud and his demo for a choir library is, IMO, a blatant rip off of Eric Whitacre's
    very famous piece from 2000.

    So that was my rant : how can you be tossing shade at me, while your "said piece" is NOT only a rip-off of Eric Whitacre's work, but also an official demo a sample library that came to complete
    ..... a little before Eric Whitacre's library with Spitfire.

    I don't know...... we've all run into snake oil salesmen.....

    My going down in flames last posted then asked about how can that sample library ever justify enforcing anti-piracy when using such tactics as above for their product, and how he can toss shade toward me when he is doing this stuff ?

    Here is the opening 60 seconds of both pieces imported into garage band, and played on the same time. First you'll hear them together, than seperate.

    John Freeman likes this.
  2. I'm not entirely sure what happened, but it seems someone took it out on you personally? There should probably be a crash course in how bullshit ad-hominem arguments are before signing up on every forum out there.

    Anyway, I don't have the context, but whatever happened, please know that I (and I'm sure others) really value your insight. In fact, I have a collection of saved clippings to an evernote folder with helpful stuff and you are one of the (unkowing) top contributors.

    Ignore the assholes and have a good one.

  3. Ahh,.....thanks man ! Really nice of you to throw over some positivity.

    You have made my day a bit better.

    Thank you
    Mauro Pantin likes this.
  4. #4 Sam Reed, Aug 30, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2019
    Hey Doug,

    Hang in there man. Sorry to hear you had a shitty day. I have no idea what happened either, but I look forward to watching the video later and living vicariously through it. Preach!

    I want to underline what Mauro said because he's absolutely right: there are a lot of people out there, myself included, who really value (and, sometimes more importantly: enjoy and take sustenance from) the stuff you post and write about, but for whatever reason may never have told you so. In my case it’s depression, I’m sure everyone has their reasons, maybe they're shy or whatever. There’s no way I can prove it scientifically, but I think it’s safe to say that for every one person like Mauro who gets around to telling you they've valued your insights for a long time, there’s about 10 people who dig your stuff that you’ll never even know are out there reading/listening.

    The really unfortunate thing is, in some cases it might be the people who value you the most, that you barely ever hear from. Doug I’ve been a fan of your posts for almost 2 years now, sometimes they’ve helped me through a rough time, made me feel like “okay I’m not completely alone in this world, there’s at least a few others that think & feel similarly to me, care about the things I care about” … but I only started posting very recently, and don’t even post very often. I mean crap, you even took the time to write directly to me a few months ago, and I’ve been meaning to get back to you ever since, but the weird paradox is: it’s so much easier to dash off a post when you don’t care about who you’re writing to, but when it’s someone you dig, then it becomes this thing where you want to put some craft into it, make it not-superfluous drivel. “Oh man, it’s Doug, not some schmuck; I have to put some real care into crafting something that’s not a waste of his time; too tired right now, hopefully tomorrow …”

    Alright, I need to stop rambling. The point was supposed to be: You are valued even by people you don’t know are out there, hang in there, and like Mauro said, ignore the assholes. (But definitely share private videos where you eviscerate them, that’s fun!)

    You’re the man, Doug. I’m glad I discovered Redbanned before you left that other place, or I'd have ended up missing out on one of my favorite writers.

    [EDIT: Removing a long rant about VI-control, because I like it here at Redbanned, it's a nice port-in-the-storm to keep all the entropy at bay, and I want it to stay that way. What I wrote could have ended up being a slippery slope that started to turn Redbanned into VI-C, which I definitely don't want. My bad, and my apologies to anyone who read it before I removed it.]
  5. Hey Doug,

    Hope all is a bit better now. Pretty intense bit of stuff went down on VI-C. Hoping its just the topic, and the things said at the forum and nothing else outside of that. Anyways, lots of support for you. Do feel free to reach out to folks if there is anything else thats really eating at you though.
    Doug Gibson and Sam Reed like this.
  6. Hey Doug,
    Shit always hits you. The good thing about turning the other cheek is that you're not looking that way anymore. You're a great contributor to the composing community so stick to people that value it!
  7. Wow ....... thanks so much...... I have so much to say thanks for in this, but not time to write it out.

    Just thanks man......it meant a lot.
  8. #8 Alexander Schiborr, Aug 30, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2019
    Hey mate,

    I think no regular american TV could broadcast your video uncensored simply because of the many Fuckwords which could made the category of a Charles Bronson movie in terms of bodycounts. (Did someone count the F***?:D)

    But man..now let me tell you... Don´t go that crazy about people in the internet mate (I mean that video for instance). What does that proof anyways? Now don´t get me wrong: You need sometimes to ventile and rant and if that works for you like that, I would be the last guy holding you back. But what does it change? Nothing, you spent even more time into things you probably don´t enjoy and instead of that you could use that time and I don´t know but transcribe a bit of tschaikowsky.

    Look what you have gained over many years: Experience, you have worked with so many great people, you teach to numerous students, you do great. I would be more then excited to have had such opportunities.

    You have your flaws, we all have.

    Do what you enjoy and share it with people who value it. There will be always persons who disagree with you. Thats normal and you have to accept that regardless how stupid it might feel to you.

    Now I think what took Lawson Madlener off in first place was the way how you entered the discussion there. You don´t do that here on that board and if you do we all know you are a bit of sarcastic and we have still a good time and are able to have a fruitful conversation, but the difference here is: We know each other a lot better on this place, and why: Small community with very similiar goals.

    When you tell me: Hey fuck you. I know it´s a bit of a friendly kind of fuck with sarcasm. You always on this board give reasons why you think something is not working or in case you have a different view and that is what is the value of the informations. I try the best to do also and we all do.

    Now I think Lawson Madlener was already done with you after your first post. He shutted of at that point, you know? You entered that discussion there a bit like a rhino. A bit paraphrasing but it felt like you just slammed another claim without saying why. And people who don´t know you might get a total different picture there. Out of his first impression (uah, whats that guy smoking probably?) so he was already done with giving you another turn or chance in trying to explain the reasons. Then he mentioned it later that he doesn´t like teachers like you. Now thats not the nicest thing to read of course and sure there were walls of texts where you tried to talk about things in more detail.

    Probably he could have said just: "Well I have a different philosophy in teaching because of this and that and we may not agree on that points" period. But so you could have done the same. Maybe something to think about also: If you have entered the discussion a bit different it would have had a chance that it turned out a bit more fruitful in the end? Who knows. Lets say Person A claims something and I come there in the discussion and say: "Wrong, wrong, wrong, ..total shit don´t do this.." without giving in my post any kind of explanation why I think so, there is a high chance that I might not connect to the people there. And there is chance then that I get some shit instead.

    Now I know that ViC isn´t the place where I feel to learn how to improve my writing or orchestrational chops or to have debates about the pros and cons about things simply because I had that in the past and it leads ad nauseum for most of the time. I entered the discussion as well in that case posting a video but I would not get these days so excited in trying to convince other people that I am right, you know? Simply because I know that this is not gonna happen and it eats up so much time as well. For what? For that I only go and visit Redbanned most of the people share similiar goals here. And see it that way: Its great we have places like that where we concentrate on the music and nothing else. I am so happy that here is almost no topic about sample talk or how sample library reviews etc.

    Now ViC is very different in terms of topics, and people and their interests. (sample talk and buying virtual instruments and such things). The demographic of people there is also in terms of interests very different than here. Its a place where such topics as "what string library is good for epic music" or "creating gazillions of of the same topics" because they are too lazy to use either google or ViC search engine is a day to day business habit and a total minority is there interested in studying orchestrational devices from Tschaikowsky or study longform symphonic writing in the vein of the great romantic composers. For that reason we have that board here. Ans thats great to have that small but very focussed community like that.

    In the end: Try to focus on things you enjoy and try surround yourself with people who share similiar goals. I can break my head over so many things in life which I find obnoxious but does that bring me personally forward. No..it just doesn´t do anything. You have to accept that there are different mindsets with different goals, interests and values out there.
    Also I hope you can make peace with him or yourself at least, so that you can shake hands and in the end of the day laugh about it and having a beer. Sounds good? I think so.

    I hope that my comment makes a bit sense, and if you disagree: Just tell me fuck of and die.:D
  9. I'm down for anything epic! Just kidding.

    When I saw you writing "wrong, wrong, wrong, ..." I had faith that you'd follow up with an explanation, because I know you to be an excellent teacher from your posts here, and you didn't disappoint! I can relate to how you feel and I've written out long angry posts many times before too, and then sometimes just deleted them again instead of sending. I understand how hard it can be to let go. @Alexander Schiborr's advice is easier to give than to follow for people like us, but he's 100% right. I get a lot of good things out of forums in general, but they also are a catastrophic drain on my time and mental focus, that I find hard to reconcile with each other at times.
    I wouldn't worry about any of this impacting your reputation. I think people who know you enough to recognize your name, know that you are a great teacher, and people who don't know you enough and see those posts, will have long forgotten about them when they later look at your website and think about hiring you as a teacher.
    I think you're gonna be fine and you are a breath of fresh air in these times where many are too scared to say what they really think!

  10. #10 Rohann van Rensburg, Aug 30, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2019
    I'm sorry to hear you had a bad day, but you have a finely tuned BS detector when it comes to music and I'm glad you're able to sniff people like this out. I think people should be held accountable for this kind of thing, blatant plagiarism is inexcusable.

    You posted a while back about trying to not have your time wasted by BS -- I know you genuinely like to help people, but I'm curious as to "why VI-C". It seems to be more a source for stress than anything else. In any case, myself and others value your honest, constructive input on here an awful lot. My bookmark list is 90% your posts. You have single-handedly directly improved my composition more than anyone else (barring Mike's classes), and I hope you're not stopping anytime soon. Still working on the lute book, might be a while (I still don't have a lute).
    Doug Gibson likes this.
  11. #11 Doug Gibson, Aug 30, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2019
    Maybe I should make a Kontakt library out of it. What can I say..... I was on a roll. :)

    I know. You are 100 % correct, and it makes me shake my head. It's something I, and like the book below, see as a pattern of the time we are.

    These are dangerous times. Never have so many people had access to so much knowledge, and yet been so resistant to learning anything. ”
    — Tom Nichols, The Death of Expertise

    Read the thread @Craig Dukerschein got into on the flat earth.

    I totally hear you ..... I don't have it very well worked out.

    I see a coin with two sides. One side with what you say.

    the other

    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for goodmen to do nothing.” ― Edmund Burke.

    (Now,....that's a quote, not my choice of words. Evil in particular does not apply to what we are talking about.)

    I am very passive on almost everything in life. Most of the time I am pretty easy going.

    Like I said... I don't have the answer, but when considering both your statement and Burkes

    Yeah, you know I recall when on VI-C it was just Troels F. or Andrew, or the Mike's (Cinesamples).
    Both of the two-steps from hell guys posted regularly as did others like Jay Bacal, or Guy Bacos who had some serious chops. And Mike V Mostly they all jumped ship.

    Mike Verta wrote this about the evolution of VI-C: "Given all that's transpired on this site - how radically it has changed; how splintered and segmented and divisive the sections have become; how much drama and hostility has emerged - on another forum elsewhere on the internet I said VI-C wasn't like it used to be. Comparatively, I said, it seemed like a trash fire."

    This only rhetorical, please let's not go into it, but why did it go that way ?
    For me.... few things really impacted that place....and now my demise :(

    1. The "experts" turned into brands: Went from offering advice to products. Not bad an of itself, but soon questions became "Hey doesn't he have to buy an ad ?" or " How can the person selling a competing product, come in and critique my work" between each "expert", and switch from offering tricks and tips to customer service and marketing.

    2. From there is seemed more and more the
    "You have to accept that there are different mindsets with different goals, interests and values out there."

    A flat-land was created. Everything is subjective, and relative. Just give it a label like "academic" and now it's flat. Learn to read music....
    well did Paul McCartney ? How can anyone say anyone is better than him. Everything is flat.

    3. Also VI-C had all these "hidden parts" to it. This is what lead to the hand over to Mike Greene, and Redbanned was born out as a result.


    Everything you say makes sense. Yes, moving on.

    I guess it's just me. Look, I know this is not --- in the grand scheme of things in life -- a big deal.

    I am a little ..... saddened that ------ and yes my behaviour is a factor in this---- is no one seems to give a shit about something, that.......
    for me was always like ...... I don't know getting caught mastrbasting or something.

    Seeing his work, which is a clear plagiarism of Eric Whitacre, being used to sell a sample library that happens to directly compete with the "Eric Whitacre" library, while promoting the web site for "sample libraries reviews.......

    I don't know.....I am a little taken back by the brazzen-ness of that, and also that no one cares.

    It's just not a musical world (--- not talking about LIFE) that makes me excited.

    To me.......how can sample companies break copyright laws to sell their products, and then have any leg to stand on with regards to people taking their work ? I saw on his page the "Orchestral Tools". They have as their demo a song that clearly is a rip-off, but is under a composers name


    That's much more forgivable.....but still. I mean ..... just call the planets ......the planets. Carma Burina is still under copyright in most places I bet.
    .but more to the point......why not just acknowledge Orff ?

    If you ever want to know why academics "Look down on film composers" ......

    I know there are plenty of examples, and I have seen so many dubious practices....

    There are magazines where you pay for a good review.
    (This guy called me at 6:30 am RAVING about me, and that I could be the next IT composer. I just need some high-profile reviews, like his magazine.
    Just $2,000 and they will review. Now he can't gaurantee o_O nudge - nudge/ wink- wink, a good review but apparently "The review literally fell over off his chair and called me (the fanfare guy) excited over the moon)

    Classical Groups that use "contests" to subsidize their work: Put out a "call for scores", charge say $25 for each submission. Typically 300-400 submissions. $ 7,500. Then never play the "winners".

    I guess it's is what it is.

    Yes......... I do need to focus on other things, and just move on. Call this case closed. Done. Over.


    @Mauro Pantin , @Sam Reed , @Rui Fukunaga

    Thank you all for the surprise kind words. I am really thankful. I hope I get to know each of you more in the future, in much lighter contexts.

    Of course thank you to the "gang" too; Alex, Thomas, Martin, Rohann.

    How about I post some music today ? !!! Yes......let's switch gears....ASAP
  12. never again. My account is gone (as I requested)
  13. I'm with you that people should care, frankly. I may just message Fluffy audio about that. It's inexcusable. Others should do the same. To act is often just as much a moral obligation as refraining from acting negatively.

    I think you're dead on about why it crashed. Your 3 points essentially summarize the death of any artistic platform: "selling out" to commercial interests, artistic relativism ("it's all about preference, there's no such thing as good-bad"), and shadyness, whether denoting the plethora of mediocre films in Hollywood, or the decline of the AAA video game industry, or "insert any artistic/entertainment industry where more people and money get involved". As Mike says, one bad apple spoils the bunch, two spoil it twice as fast.

    I think you'll be better off for not being there (and so will we, if I'm being unabashedly selfish and honest). You seem prone to existential crises like I'm sure many of us are, but thankfully places like Redbanned exist. And I mean look at Mike's Unleashed streams -- there are such a ridiculous amount of pieces being submitted for honest feedback that Mike can't even get through half of them in 24h. That's really encouraging. It might be hard to avoid the stench and sight of a dumpster fire, but if you manage to move away from it you just may be able to see and smell the proverbial flowers more clearly.
  14. Sorry to see you leave VIC. You do have support there though. I enjoyed your comments in the melody thread and I know others did as well.

    Who knows exactly what the intent was of Lawson? I suspect (and hope) his words were not meant to insult you and offend you as much as they did. I hope it was just as Alexander described above. Regardless, if it is less stress for you to not participate there then it makes sense to remove your account as you did. You are an outspoken and intelligent guy and although I don't know you at all, I have seen enough of your posts to kind of ascertain your personality a bit and your way of speaking/writing where what you posted on VIC would not in the least offend or upset me.

    Anyway, as others have mentioned, you make some great posts! Hope to see more of them over here.
    Doug Gibson likes this.
  15. #15 Luke Olney, Aug 30, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
    Come on now, this is a bit much is it not? It's a sample library demo, the purpose of which is to display and show what the library can do, as well what it sounds like. So what if the piece sounds like Eric? How much choral music is influenced by his work? I'm guessing a lot. This feels unnecessarily picky, and in all honesty I can think of many other sample library demos that 'lift' from different composers (some of which are far more obvious than this). I kindly say that maybe it's worth considering just dialing it back a bit? He's not selling the music, it's a demo for a sample library.
    Doug Gibson likes this.
  16. #16 Rohann van Rensburg, Aug 30, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
    No, it's not much. There are large sections that aren't even in a different key. Furthermore, it's a demo being used to sell a product for profit. That kind of thing earns you a lawsuit in the real world.
    It doesn't "sound like Eric", it is Eric. Influence is very obviously different and I'm not sure most of us here are in the dark about the difference.

    Dialing what back? I'm not suggesting suing the company, I'm saying make FA aware that the piece sounds rather obviously plagiarized. It's not even bringing public attention to it. The attitude of "come on, it's a professional demo to sell a product" is exactly the kind of problematic mindset in question, and the fact that a lot of people do it doesn't make it less dishonest. Would a university care that you weren't making money on a paper containing plagiarized pages you submitted even though you weren't selling it?
    Doug Gibson likes this.
  17. Lets; let it go. We both share the cognitive dissonance......but, ........ let's make a positive difference, and invest positive energy on those we
    love most. That's your own advice.

    I gave the kid a pass.

    You know that Spitfire had a some 42+ page thread going on at the same time. People were all going....when is the london calling coming out.....

    I could have just dropped the video above in there. The above video was posted for about 30 minutes or so , and I .....myself, took it down and asked to be removed from the site.

    If there is any one last thing, I would appreciate someone here... I can't as I am not on the site......to just close the case........
    and only be as nice as possible.

    I would be grateful is someone could (and again..... be cool....chill) please request Mike Greene, take down his comment that
    I am "clearly in self destruct mode"

    Two years ago a member named JSG insinuated Re-peat had aspergers. I chimed in and said that was unfair, because he in know way in a medical specialist. It becomes a rumor that can stick and change peoples listening. Mike Greene, wrote me a very nice email, and agreed 100%. He took down
    JSG's and (with my permission) my post too. The reason he said was since the offending quote would come down...... it would also be the best gesture to take down my post alluding to the comments.

    I just ask the same. I am not "self-destructing". In my POV ---- I fully acknowledge that I was pissed off to level 10 - and thus self restraining.
    (See above) I pulled everything I thought to be in bad taste on my own. I called to be kicked out.....

    I just would like that post, and the one from choco bitz asking if I am worried about my brand. That's all.

    The last one feels odd too, as worried about my brand, and but not the plagiarism brand ?

    Please let's move along. Yes, spend time with those you care about, and focus on the things that bring positive energy to you.

    Really......thanks again everyone..... I would not be able to utter that without all the wonderful support.

    Thank you !

  18. Nice to see you around again. How did that wedding song ever turn out ?

    I don't have (clearly !) any answers. If I may just take your post and ask a question back to you with a few words changed, could let me know.
    (I'm totally chilled man... not going to debate you. Whatever you write I'll click like and leave it at that)

    It might be a generational thing ? Idk.... please just read your comments - remixed- by me towards the context of people using pirated sample libraries, and let me know if you have any insight you can share:

    ]Come on now, this is a bit much is it not? It's a EP demo, the purpose of which is to display and show what I can do musically, and I want it to sound the best. So what if it's Omnisphere ? How much Film music is influenced by this software? I'm guessing a lot. This feels unnecessarily picky, and in all honesty I can think of many other composers that 'lift' from different sample libraries (some of which are far more expensive than this). I kindly say that maybe it's worth considering just dialing it back a bit? I'm not selling a sample library. It's a demo for the music
    Rohann van Rensburg likes this.
  19. A fair point, and I do get it. I guess I'm just seeing it as a bit of a vendetta against another composer, for who we have no idea whether or not he intentionally did anything. I know for certain I've wrote things that have unintentionally been very similar to others' work, so maybe that's the case here? We've all likely been guilty of it at some point. I think in the grand scale this is far more harmless than harmful, which is why I mentioned perhaps dialing it back a bit. Either way it looks like it's blown over a bit now, so perhaps I've come in late and missed the storm. :confused:

    A few changes were made to the Wedding piece in the end thanks, though nothing major. It's been a while and I can't bring myself to revisit it now!
    Doug Gibson likes this.
  20. Awesome.. well i hope to hear more of your work around these parts

    Thanks and be well

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