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Criticism Flowchart

Discussion in 'UNIT M3' started by Mike Verta, Mar 31, 2018.

  1. I know you with ignore this based on your chart and where I'd be placed on it - but it doesn't seem functional.

    Lets say your job is to make something that every day people need. Like food.

    Lets say you're a chef, so you start making one of your signature dishes and offering it.

    Frequent complaints from customers, who don't like the dish.

    But ofcourse they AREN'T chefs themselves - so it should/would get thrown out.

    Likewise, if you write some avant garde shit that other musicians wank to - but your general audience/director don't like it, you're going to ignore it? I hate to seem contrarian, but I actually don't think this applies to the vast majority of life... my patient has had shoulder surgery, doesn't know anything about anatomy - but I'll still change our morning routine if he *thinks* moving a certain way is going to hurt/not hurt his shoulder. Maybe I'm a unique case and I've just never really encountered this, but what is a situation you find this specifically useful? Sample libraries?
  2. Kyle, to use your example of the chef offering the signature dish that nobody likes - what does the flowchart say you should do with a majority opinion?
    Si Withenshaw likes this.
  3. The chef knows he doesn't respect and admire random people at his place.

    at least not when it comes to food.

    Maybe that's my biggest issue with it, because I think if the "Majority Share" bubble was a potential next to admire/respect it would probably work, but coming after the admire/respect seems to trip it up for me. Sort of describes some elitists who become so disconnected with their craft that they don't realize it's completely unrelatable. If it's like engineering or something, that's fine... but if you're making something for the average person to consume in some way - the opinion of a random person is almost more important than the opinion of the expert... I think I can risk speaking for most of the forum here - but your typical trailer cue these days is mind numbingly boring, but the average joe schmoe eats it up...

    In the case of something polarizing like politics it becomes even worse because most people don't respect/admire people who disagree with them. Imagine trying to criticize the idea of a social justice type... right off the bat, the majority doesn't hold the same opinion, AND they certainly don't respect you for having your filthy bigoted wrongthink!

    That said, I guess the chart isn't that bad if I just attached that bubble directly to the criticism bubble.
  4. What does the chart say you're supposed to do with a majority opinion?
  5. Interesting chart.

    Well, I even welcome opinions / critics by people who I don´t admire. People I don´t respect..hmm..respect for what? For the own musicianship? For their personality? I mean lets assume someone who is a total rookie and critics my work. There is nothing wrong with it. How you transport a message is much more of an importance rather than if someone appreciates your work or he feels you can improve it still. That is also the reason why I often chose often also closer non musician friends to ask them about opinions when I do a new track. Unfiltered non academic feedback is sometimes the best and it can help to see things which you probably just don´t see because you listen with completely different ears.
    Having said that, overall I think the chart is a good starting to point but I won´t go strictly using such chart to decide what feedback is of value or not.
  6. #7 Sam Miller, Apr 1, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
    I'm not sure what the big stink is about here. 'Consider' it is not a declarative statement and most likely could branch into further decision points. Yes, there's some ambiguity with regard to 'respect and admire.' Still though, that puts the emphasis back on the individual, their capacity to understand their audience or market and define 'respect and admiration' accordingly.
  7. #8 Mike Verta, Apr 1, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
    As you should. The chart says so.
    If you knowingly don't respect a person - you know they're not good people, or smart people, or aspirational people - doesn't matter why, you know you do NOT respect them - do not respect their opinion. If you don't KNOW if you respect them, proceed - this according to the chart.
    If you mean how THEY communicate their criticism is more important than the content of the criticism, then no, how they communicate their criticism is of zero importance.
    Close friends - people you respect. Yes, the chart recommends this.
    Yes, again, the chart is clear on this.

    @Alexander Schiborr same question: In all cases, what does the chart say you should do with criticism from people you respect and admire (no matter why) and what should you do with criticism from people you don't know, but who's opinion represents the majority?
    Alexander Schiborr likes this.
  8. Hey Mike, Happy belated easter!

    And thanks for the clarification and illustration. It makes sense. I still thought to give an example:

    Let ´s assume you know someone which you respect for his musical craft but you think he is a douchebag just because of his way how his personality is and the way how he transports messages. So this guy let´s say critics your piece of music with some few but valid points (I look outside from the experiment) and lets assume the way how he transports his messages is a bit snotty, sarcastic whatever. Should I then consider his opinion? The chart would ask at that point: "Do I respect and admire this person?" I would probably respect him for his own craft but would have less respect for him as an individual and for his less prolific statements.
    Don´t get me wrong. I think the chart is nonthing else but a good guideline but real life situations contain a lot of more grey scales where I am not sure if I would find the way through that example just by answering it with a simple "yes" or "No". Maybe there comes the point of decisions to make for your/myself and weighing cons vs. pros to get to a conclusion to consider his / her opinion as relevant or not.
  9. Alex, is it possible you're confusing respect for the person with respect for their opinion and its value?
  10. @Sam Miller He's over-complicating it, that's all. I have my suspicions as to why, but that's later.

    @Alexander Schiborr you didn't answer my question. What does the chart say to do with the opinion of somebody you respect for any reason?

    (And yes, if you respect the person's opinion on your music because you respect his music, the chart says you should... do what?)
  11. overcomplicating? why? There is no specific reason behind that my assertion other than what I wrote.

    Oh well. okay, let me think a while about the chart again. Maybe I missed something..
  12. @Alexander Schiborr This is the third time I've asked you the question, and the fourth time I've asked it in the thread:

    What does the chart say you're supposed to do with the opinion of somebody you respect for any reason?
  13. If I respect somebody for "any" reason? Well the chart sais go left down and cosider it, right?
  14. The only potential flaw I can see here is that chart advises one to ignore criticisms from those they don't respect. Yes it will lead to less grief if you do but it might also mean you're not hearing what you need to hear.

    Just my opinion of course. Naturally you'll all say "thank you" to me because you all admire and respect me.

    ...don't you? ;)
  15. Well, yeah I was thinking something like that as well. Sure Mike sais: When the chart sais: Do you respect him for any reason, then consider his input. Well fine. And I tried to say: Well..there is something which I call the grey area where people have hardskills but their softskills are in the basement. And therefore the chart would say: Well yepp from a pure academic standpoint consider his opinion, from a personal standpoint: Fuck that dude. And there is the pinpoint for me: Such chart is a good guideline for sure, but you should always look closely to what the case actually is. That was my whole point. Maybe..that didn´t came that way or maybe my lack of semantics are showing here up. I don´t know. Or maybe I overcomplicate the shit therefore I said and I say it again: The chart is for sure a good guideline and nothing wrong with it. And I don´t know but that makes sense to me, I don´t know if to you guys, but again, some music I write makes total sense to me and to nobody else lol!
  16. I think it goes without saying that the chart doesn't work if you can't take criticism and automatically sort everyone who criticizes you into the "No respect" folder. If you're a mature person looking to improve, then you will have no problem with criticism, and the chart is pretty straightforward.

    People you respect are people you admire in any way. It's not black-or-white. If a successful artist manager who's been in the business for a while is giving you career advice, he probably knows what he's talking about. But when he's criticizing your composition while you know he himself never in his life composed a single piece, he's approaching the music from a consumer standpoint. Now, if he's the only (or a rare) case and there isn't a majority opinion that your piece sucks, you should ignore it because he probably doesn't know what he's talking about here (or he's just talking about his personal taste).

    But does that mean that you shouldn't take his career advice?

    You can list a million examples like this. Bottom line is: consider criticism from people who are criticizing your approach to whatever you respect/admire them for.
    Rohann van Rensburg likes this.

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