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Cinesamples - not playable ???

Discussion in 'Tips, Tricks & Talk' started by Hur Ozan Cerrahoglu, Feb 24, 2019.

  1. Hi,

    I recently got my hands on cine strings and cine brass. Since a few months i am trying to perform all stuff that I am recording, (a skill I am trying to develop after Mike masterclasses)

    Adventure Brass, VSL and Caspian are very playable for me lately. Tried to play "a better main title" stuff with Cinesamples, almost nothing worked for me. It's probably for more Zimmer stuff.. I guess.. For those who are planning invest in it make sure what you are buying.

    Rohann van Rensburg likes this.
  2. Most libraries suffer from rigidly disparate "articulations," which only work if you play stilted, homogeneous lines, i.e. a billion staccato notes or the ever-popular string-of-marcato lines, neither of which are particularly musical or expressive. Real players don't play this way, and musically expressive lines don't follow rigid articulations; they contain a million microarticulations per phrase, which we can much more closely perform with libraries like Samplemodeling or Adventure Brass. Talked about this at length in the live brass class as you recall!
  3. Yes Sir, indeed you did but i probably missed the part with Cinesamples. Now i have to find a way to sell it back )) Musical Sampling 's string libraries are as playable as brass? Would you recommend? I have hollywood strings gold edition (all EW hollywood orchestra actually), i guess you are using those right now. But i wonder if they are playable?

  4. #4 Alexander Schiborr, Feb 25, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
    First: Did you try out to change the mapping? I have not their brass range but as far I remember that they introduced after an update a couple of years ago the option to re-arrange that. So, by default articulations were driven by velocity control which I finded a bit odd. But afaik you can change that. Also to be fair: that library is almost 8 years old.

    Second: There is no way to re-sell or sell it back, so go and read their policies. According to their EULA´s (read also here:https://cinesamples.com/file/resources/faq/EULA_7-19-10.pdf). In particular, Ozan, now go and read:

    1. "By removing the outside seal of any packaging that may come with the Library, you acknowledge and agree that the Library may not be returned to Cinesamples or a Cinesamples authorized representative, subject to the limited warranty on media set forth above."

    2."Cinesamples does not warrant against interference with your enjoyment of the Library, that the functions contained in the Library will meet your requirements, that the operation of the Library will be uninterrupted or error-free, or that defects in the Library will be corrected."

    My tip: Before buying libraries go and read such things prior your purchase.

    Hope that helps!!
    Rohann van Rensburg likes this.

  5. Alexander, many thanks for the warning... (((
  6. Always a pleasure.
    Rohann van Rensburg likes this.
  7. Whoa !!! What was that ? !! Unreal.

    That video sure puts to rest the stereo type of white people not having any groove, and being lousy dancers.

    Sadly, it effects more people than commonly known

    Rohann van Rensburg likes this.
  8. I dig the paperhangings..
  9. It's precisely why I like i.e. Virharmonic for solo string stuff. Solo strings are almost impossible to get convincingly right, but their whole sellpoint is the engine that does a lot of the articulation selection based on your keyboard performance. It can't do everything, but it does basic lines and techniques in context as well as one could expect it to, without needing 80 tracks for all the articulations. I'm sold on performable libraries so much more than anything else now.
    And if it doesn't sound "good enough", and the piece does happen to be good enough, it's probably worth getting it recorded at some point.
  10. I'm going to transcribe this.
  11. Well technically it was a download so I didn't break any seal...

    But yeah, I don't know of any software that allows for a refund. A few allow you to transfer the license but not many.

    Also the story I've heard of the "trololol" song is that the lyrics were too political to sing on Soviet state TV, so he made up nonsense to sing the melody.
  12. #12 Alexander Schiborr, Feb 28, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
    That´s a guess but I think "downloading" and "authorizing a library" equals a physical process of buying a product and removing the seal. So it is technically not the same but according to their EULA´s it could be the same kind of interpretation and therefore consequence. Now the thing is that these sales agreements are affecting international law territory because pretty much all sample devs sell their libraries worldwide (exceptions excluded). Its pretty complex because its not just Company sells a product. There are many different cases and constellations, e.g.:

    1. Company a (country x, profit, specific laws) sells Person A (profit, country z) a library
    2. Company b (country x, non profit, specific laws) sells Person B (non profit, Country Z) a library
    3. Company c (country z, non profit) sells Person C (profit, Country X) a library
    4. Company a (country Z (profit) sells Person D (non profit, Country S) a library

    And now think about all the different countries guidelines and specific laws affecting also international affairs.
    According to the EU Law Court there was a precedent in 2012 where the court had a case and determined in particular that re-selling used software is legit regardless of the EULA´s of a software dev. (Lawcase Az.: C-128/11). The german BGH (Bundesgerichtshof) agreed to that adjudgement also. So imo sample devs who do international affairs are very often in a grey area with their EULAs. What I find in that regards not good is that sample devs deliberately let customers in the believe that they don´t allow re-selling their products which for the uninformed man reads like law but in fact it simply isn´t. It is their EULA nothing less, but nothing more and that dosn´t automatically means that this is confirmative according to law or even international law. But especially in this VI / Library world there is no precendent case which I know of, otherwise this methods would have pretty quickly an end. Sample devs could do themselves but also their customers a big favor if they provide a demo version of their library, you know like a few patches limited in their range but they deliberately don´t although it is technically no problem. Lets say 2-3 instruments with one or 2 articulations limited in one octave range.
    Other than that I would advice people just to get as many informations on a library prior purchase. Don´t just listen to demos or watch the devs tutorials, also go and read what other people say, get as many informations to get a broader view on the product. Its like with the news, when you just watch CNN, you will get always only the informations what CNN wants you to know.

    Having said that: I have no bad feel about cinesamples at all, in particular I think they recorded some great samples in a one of the best recording stages of the world. I wished they would go back and record in the same room a new orchestral line but with a more performance oriented approach and deepler sampled. I recently got their percussion range and I think they are awesome.
  13. As much as I like OT and only wish them well, I kinda want to see someone create that precedent, because it feels like they are willfully deceiving people into thinking they don't have rights that they actually have.
    What I don't know though, is if there is a loophole that they can use on the DRM side, like e.g. "The law allows you to sell your install media, but law can't force us to make the license transfer in NI Access happen."
  14. I must disagree with the statements above.

    I think we can all agree that the tone of Cinesamples Brass is excellent. While perhaps on first examination it might not seem very playable, some stacking of the patches can create excellent results.

    The following is CS trumpets, AB trumpets, CS Horns, AB Horns, and CS Trombones. All were played in live with just the modwheel

    Also keep in mind that the CS Brass that I have is only from their lite product which has less dynamics and round robins than the full brass.
    George Streicher likes this.
  15. Yes the tone is great, as it is in spitfire, berlin and others too, yet I like the sony stage the most for several reasons. But it lacks of fluidity as others do too (the typical lego bricket putting pre-recorded stiff articulations with no musical intention together and no control over pitch fluctuation, attack control, tuning etc)..which results in a stiff midi sounding performance.

    However it is a nice library for sure, but when you want to re-create or come close to a live performance you have to try out different things in order to capture the performance quite right, e.g. try it out and re-create this one here with cinesamples brass, I can tell you allready that that this will be not possible with something like cinebrass, or affiliates.

    George Streicher likes this.
  16. Did you listen to the example I posted? Very curious as to your thoughts regarding the differences between the Adventure Brass vs Cinesamples version I just posted.

    I will try to mock up some brass from the piece you posted in both Adventure Brass and Cinesamples when I have some time.
  17. Yes indeed, I have listened to the examples.
  18. Took 10 mins to mock up the opening of that piece. Obviously, nothings gonna get super close to the live sound, but considering the fact that this example uses the same exact midi data for both AB and CB, I think the statement that CB can't be playable is wrong.

  19. #19 Alexander Schiborr, Mar 1, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
    Yes noah, and there you see it sounds like shit...:) Thanks for proving that. And I disagree,there are methods to get close to that performance but its tedious and unfortunately not done between morning pee and coffee = 10 minutes, that would be great if it would be that easy..:D
  20. Well, I thought people were rude on vi control!:)...

    We seem to have very different definitions of the word playable. It was only my purpose to show the OP that there is indeed a way to make CB just as playable as adventure brass or others. After all, the base material is exactly the same (recorded notes of different lengths and dynamics). Individual taste plays more into the tone.

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