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Anyone tried the "Orchestra Guide"?

Discussion in 'Template Balancing' started by Duncan Formosa, Sep 17, 2020.

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  1. #1 Duncan Formosa, Sep 17, 2020
    Was going over the template balancing masterclass when I came across this video.

    The idea is that you have a reference track for each instrument and you set the levels of your VST to that to get a perfect balance. I hate having to mess around with all the VST stuff so any way to make the process easier sounds great to me, and this sounds promising...But does it actually work?

    The entire package costs around $79 - £63, really want to know if this is worth it so I don't waste my money. Has anyone tried this yet? If so, what do you think?

     
  2. #2 Dmitry Egorov, Sep 25, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
    Doesn't the pizzicato sound a bit louder than arco in their example? According to Mike's template balancing this shouldn't be the case. I don't have a lot of experience with a live orchestra myself, so I might be hearing it wrong.

    EDIT: sustains at 1:35 and pizzicato at 1:45 in their video
     
  3. #3 Alexander Schiborr, Sep 25, 2020
    You know..while I think this is not a bad idea. I would recommend to you balance your template with a specific live recording or studio recording. Aim for the sound that you like and try to balance it. I mean there is also not a "universal" balance per se..depends on so many things like orchestra, hall, peformance..jesus..just a lot. However, I always go and balance my templates with some real stuff.
     
  4. #4 Duncan Formosa, Sep 25, 2020
    I ended up getting the pack and noticed a few things which I'm not so sure about. For starters, the horns seem to be louder than the trumpets and Mike says in the class that horns aren't nearly as powerful as the trumpets. Okay, I guess I can bring them down a little myself and try and see where they might sit.

    Plus if you stack all the instruments ontop of each other the moment they get to fortissimo the meter goes to +4db! That can't be right can it? I guess I could pull all the tracks down to the same level so they don't peak and then match the VST's to that?

    Also the pianissimo on the woodwinds section sits at around -18db and fortissimo at around -12db. Is that right? I thought pp would be quieter than that. Still have lots to learn about all this
     
  5. #5 Alexander Schiborr, Sep 25, 2020
    I don´t want to be the devils advocate, however one more thing: Players are absorbers..they affect the sound too..there is even more ..pushing air..however, still my advice: Go by a real recording that you like;) Good luck buddy. And one last thing: Don´t go by numbers, use your ear.
     
  6. #6 Marko Dvojkovic, Sep 25, 2020
    You have to take into account how close/far your samples sound and how forte they really sound at 127 modwheel value because that can deceive the perceived loudness. Although I think that it is a good practice to balance by highest dynamic values/velocities like Mike does in the masterclass I noticed that sometimes lower dynamic layers/velocities sound more appropriate and "realistic" in certain contexts so then you will have to pull the volume up for those lines, but certainly having a well balanced template saves a lot of time and hassle.
    Trumpets can overpower the whole orchestra and that is a nice orchestration feature to take advantage of for example when you make the impression in a section that it is the loudest it will go in the whole piece and then you add also trumpets to go from 10 to 11. Also since trumpets have that kind of ear penetrating quality like trombones also, when they kick in they can have that kind of effect to startle a bit the listener which can be very nice in some contexts.
     
  7. #7 Mike Verta, Sep 25, 2020
    For so many reasons, this can not be better than playing in a few bars from several scores and balancing to real recordings.
     
  8. #8 Alexander Schiborr, Sep 25, 2020
    Balancing a sample library with another sample library really does not work in my opinion. It is shit in = shit out. None of these examples have the range of a real orchestra. When you really aim for expression, realism and some decent mojo, really go and mess around with real recordings. It really helps. It's a different approach since you have to keep certain factors (mentioned before) in mind. It is still imo the best way to get closer to the real thing.

    Also, don't forget realism is not only balance, but also expression and to understand the "life" in the orchestra, the dynamics, the tempo variations, also..detuning. Here is a short example:



    Keep on experimenting! It takes a while, it takes..sometimes a bit more than a while. And one more thing: Forget about to use sample library patches are they are intended. Only because it is called Marcato does not mean it creates a great sounding marcato, or legato or whatever, go by what sounds good and not by any nomenclature.

    Cheerio

    Alex
     
    Marko Dvojkovic likes this.
  9. #9 Duncan Formosa, Sep 25, 2020
    The recordings from this are from real orchestras. They have each section play with different articulations and different dynamics. That's why I thought it might have been good to use as a reference, but then you don't know how it was recorded or if they brought the levels up etc so I don't know how well it can be trusted. The idea was there but not sure if it really works. Still working on my template so will need to see how it all plays out. I'm hoping I can at least get close to having a well balanced template.
     
  10. #10 Thomas Bryla, Sep 26, 2020
    If it goes to +4dB just lower all volume the same amount.
    I can't think of any reason to have different references for each instrument. They react as a group. Horns have a different loudness in different repetoire and recordings.
     
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