Dragonflight - Shredding on the guitar

Jackson KE7R and ESP LTD F-50, both are 25.5" I think.

Good to know! Does he play a baritone or 25.5" scale guitar though? I kinda like that song. On a whole the album probably is a bit too technical for my taste.

Which one feels tighter of the two?

I have neither of those .

Thanks for the link, that looks handy!




I've played a bit more on my 11-64 7-string today and my fingers still hurt a bit. For D-standard the tension is probably fine. The irritation mostly comes from switching from flatwound to roundwound I think. I much prefer the feel of flatwound, but the sound was just too far from what I want.

 

This is awesome. Do you have more of the stuff? Any suggestions on other pieces like this?

 

He recorded with an old Ibanez S which is 25.5.

I find it hard to make it through a whole metal album of this nature in one sitting. They did a 30 minute EP which "flows" like one song which I think is more manageable. However, breaks like this sure keep it interesting:

Some songs have somewhat more conventional structure and catchy riffs which helps too.

One is my PRS which is 25" (usually in E) and the Gibson is 24.75". The PRS feels slightly tighter but it's also different because of how the string gauge itself feels. I had 12-56's on my PRS when I had it in C and it felt better than the Epiphone does, with less intonation issues too (unsurprisingly).

No problem! And I'm pretty sure no one has hands the size of Jeff Loomis, except for maybe Jari from Wintersun:

Also:
@Doug Gibson I missed that post the first time but that was beautiful. I wish I could write and play like that. I echo Aaron in wanting both to hear more and to hear about the composition process, of course if you have time.

 

Ah.....thanks man !! You are always too kind.

I actually did write a another piece that was like a "prelude" to this for guitar viola.

That was like 15 years ago. I can't really listen to it...... too many shortcomings for me now.
But, it is what it is, and that was where I was at back then.

Sure....... This piece is amazing, and is the most direct influence. Played by the "other" John Williams (no relation)

Also these are the most related to the Ascension piece

 

What video ? Thank you for the kind comments. I was first a classical guitar major, and then went to a school in LA called Musicians Institute.
They had a 1 year course....it was always just called G.I.T. This was @ 1995 I did that, and lived off hollywood blvd for a year.

I think this is where my aversion to "Fusion" began. There was a band by the faculty called "Tribal Tech" and players like Frank Gambale ...who is a lovely person.... I never connected with musically. Return to Forever is another. It was a cool place. You could drop in on any faculty member during open office hours. A jazz guitarist named Joe Diorio gave me a straight up lesson I will always remember. Basically every week we would jam on a tune. Simple Jazz tunes like Blue Bossa, or Shadow of your smile. Etc.

One week he assigns me "all the things you are". Which is a tune I have always hated, but it's like THE jazz ballad. So, as the changes were too complex for me the navigate in real time I decided to practice by basically writing out my own solo. Memorize it, and act like I was improvising on it.

Well....... it all went to total shit, and he and ran circles around me. I was depressed, and he was a very nice person. He asked me what was wrong. I told him how I was practicing 8-12 hours a day, burning out, and now I can't even make it thru one round of this tune without crashing.

He asked me how old I was. I said 20. He laughed and said " You could spend the next 20 years in the practice room for 8-12 hours a day, and I would still smoke your ass !"

It was very helpful and made me laugh. What he was trying to say was this is not a race. A marathon perhaps. The old tortoise vs. rabbit story.
It made the failure feel much less important. I'll always remember that.

 

Thanks man. Too kind. Don't really deserve that, but thank you.

Umm... at that stage the composing was entirely connected to the tactile connection with the guitar. I would hit record and play. The old "panning for gold" approach. Basically, I had a idea that stuck in my mind and so I would sort of just try and feel where to go.
Then I would listen back to my improvs and see what was worth keeping and what .....was best forgotten.

So it was directly tied to my fingers.

Other things to say: It's an altered tuning. An open C minor. So low to high: C, G,C,G,C,Eb.

I still have the score somewhere if you would like.

Lastly, if it is ok, can I shout out the work of one of my former students. She is a fantastic guitarist, and very down to earth person.
She had a commision with Carnegie Hall to write a new, sort of, guitar concerto and came to me for lessons.

This is one of the pieces we worked on,

and this shows her just solo (not related to our lessons at all.)

 

I love this one as well. It's a pity you don't like black/doom metal, I'm sure you'd absolutely nail it.

That sounds like an approach that I should try too. And I know where I can come for help if I'm stuck on the transcription afterwards .

I never really played with anything other than drop or standard. I experimented once with something different, but it was too confusing for me.
If you play on such a tuning, do you play more often on open strings, or play more barre chords, or what's the main goal behind it?

Maybe he thinks the "speed kills" video was you playing? I remember we passed that video around in school, it was almost like an early meme. I've seen him play live in Wacken once.

Great lesson!

I'm not good at keeping track of genres, never even heard of "orthodox" BM. It made me think of Batushka, because of their orthodox religous themes, but I don't think that's what it means.
According to what I've found online these bands are:

Akercocke - blackened progressive death metal
Schammasch - avant-garde black metal
Woods of Desolation - depressive black metal
Forgotten Tomb - depressive suicidal black metal / black doom
Shining - depressive suicidal black metal / progressive metal
Mgla, Aversio Humanitatis - black metal (or maybe rather someone was too lazy to make up a more fancy sounding subgenre like everyone else does... )

I could probably also enjoy post black metal or the much frowned upon black gaze / blackened shoegaze to some degree, but it's not something I listen to regularly.



P.s.: If anyone can recommend some good depressive suicidal blackend synthwave/outrun, I'd be interested. The closest I know are Abstract Void and Violet Cold, but neither are really doing it for me. Maybe not everything needs to be fused together, but I find the idea too hilarious to ignore.

 

What would you say the shortcomings are? I'm curious what would you change, or rather (before you say "Everything!") what would you do differently to express these same moods today? I never write for guitar nor play but fuck me if these two pieces don't super intrigue me and make want to go to my local shop and pick one up tomorrow, so I'm curious what would do you think could've been done better? I really enjoyed them and at multiple times as I caught myself imagining it done with an orchestra, I thought how it would be too much or 'more than it needs to be', because the guitar does everything that it needs to.

This might be another silly question but since I have 0 guitar experience, how do you come up with that? I guess it makes playing certain stuff easier, but what exactly is the deciding factor here?

If you have it, it'd be lovely. Also if it's not too much to ask, can you share the pieces for download (lossless or whatever you have)? I'd love to just blast this on my speakers, sit back and enjoy all the detail. Sorry for my audiophile kinks.

 

Haha I find it hilarious that he just plays in his underwear on his bed (the shirt is the label he's signed to). Yeah his tone is pretty saturated at times but I actually kind of like it, though he's obsessed with EMG's and I'm not a fan. This is him (the guy on the right has become kind of a legendary lead player in the last 5 years. You'll find him on Cracking The Code, and he's given lessons recently to some already insane players:

Jari and Fredrik are probably the two players on earth I could sit and listen to shredding without getting bored:

 

Sure you do. That's a beautiful piece and I'm both envious and inspired. So is the piece you responded to Aaron with. Do you have these pieces for sale or in a downloadable place? I way prefer CD's and records to have it "contained" in an organized manner but I know that's usually prohibitive.

The guitar seems to be unique in this regard. I don't know of many other instruments that seem quite so intuitive to compose on. Piano, sure, but it's way easier to be conscious of what you're playing on piano than guitar, IMO. I think the process is probably quite similar but guitar seems to be one of the only compositional tools I see used where people compose at a technical level without knowing "where they are".

I will say that hearing the main inspirations for those pieces is extraordinarily helpful. Making the connection between "stolen idea" and "new idea" is probably one of the most revealing aspects of guitar composition. Reminds me of this (this is the last time I'll post this band, but frankly this is the real reason I'm enamoured with his writing ability)
Original idea (just intro):

New Idea (it's a ballad, don't worry). If I can write like this on guitar by the end of my life I think I'll be relatively satisfied:

Good to know! Been messing around with D-A-D-F-B-E lately, but I'll have to try that. I've played with open D minor before but C sounds lovely on acoustic/classical.
I'm sure I could transcribe it with relative accuracy but fingerings and positioning is always the key on guitar, so if you have it somewhere handy I'd love to see it, but only if it's not much effort. Thank you!

Beautiful! That's one style of playing I'm really rather intimidated to venture into. I appreciate the new listening avenues, I really love this style of playing. Edit: Been listening more to Kaki since this morning and she's got a fantastic sense for composition overall. Love her overall compositional style, reminds me a bit of one of my favourite records albeit with a slightly different structural approach. Really don't tend to hear a lot of female guitarists in this vein, I'm not sure why, but she's fantastic.

This is one artist I've discovered in the last few years that does it rather uniquely:

The real utility in open tunings is being able to freely use open strings within relevant chords or the applicable key, and this makes really complicated sounding pieces actually not that complex to play. You're rather restricted as to where you can place your fingers on guitar vs. on piano in terms of efficiency and comfort, since it's kind of non-linear. The difference is that it's literally the easiest thing on guitar do simply move a chord shape around, so i.e. quick descending major 7ths can be done by a beginner whereas on piano this would actually be rather difficult.
Guitar is weird. I find even changing to some obscure tuning I'm not familiar with will open up a bunch of new ideas and change the way I play. I might not be able to sustain that forever due to a lack of familiarity, but it can be really useful.

 

Geez I'm really post-spamming here.

Since we're posting videos of friends, Nick is probably one of the most unique improvisers I've come across and can shred like a maniac, but I love the way he restrains himself to writing interesting harmony and fairly simple lead lines on his records. I don't think this is remotely his favourite song on this record but I can't get the weird harmony out of my head. Stealing the hell out of this song's ideas.

I think the verse is Bm-Bdim-Bm-Bmaj. So weird. Kind of noir-y, 80s-esque vibe. He interestingly wrote this entire record on piano.

 

Ahh......thank you. Everyone is too kind. Thanks !

Wow.......never in 100 years would I have thought that. I can't comprehend what connection there is between the two pieces I posted and Black Metal.....but often time people can see connections is others far better than the person. Like how the audience all knows Romeo and Juliet will fall in love long before they do. Plus it's better than "I'm sure you would suck". I'll start practicing my black metal face

I'll write about this more in reply to Aaron. It can be (but does not have to) all the above. While theoretically it's possible to tune the strings to pretty much anything, the most common tune the strings to an open major chord, or some clearly "modal" sound ( DADGAD)

A lot of Blues slide was based on this idea.

Yes, open strings play a very important role in guitar. The other is the important aspect which has not been mentioned yet is the
Sympathetic Resonance

I posted this awhile back, but I tried this with a string quintet. I had them change the tuning to basically reflect this guitar tuning.
The difficulty is you have to notate the parts "as played" vs. "at pitch". So each string becomes a transposition in and of itself.

Around the 5:30 mark is where there is no other way to get this type of fast playing without the open strings.




Probably the most sophisticated open tuning song in pop I can think of would Led Zep Rain Song. It's a great track.

Jimmy Page was very interested in altered tunings.

All the blue-grass stuff is the maj chord open tuning I was referring to

This one is pretty cool too

 

Well, I guess it's impossible and masochistic to try and judge myself 15+ years ago.
I try and just listen..... but my more analytical side would say

Too much direct repetition.
What sustains it... destroys it.
The tuning created the mood or affect I wanted but locked me in. (aka lack of modulation)
I just did not have the conception even of compositional devices that would open up the work.

That said...... it feels like a very direct representation of my music at the time.
It was my fingers doing the walking and trying to figure out how in life to gain some skill at composing.

Write for two guitars. It just opens everything up. 2 guitars (I am referring to classical guitars with this) is 10x's better.
I can show you where I headed about 3 years later. This is an except from a long piece. Two guitars both in a dmin9 tuning.




The thing I did like about this piece, and the two you have heard, is like Hermann was the affect of instrumental color.
This piece is for shakuhachi flute, two guitars, two marimbas, SATB, and shit load of mediation bowls.

At the time, being in conservatory, it felt free to know I was far from Beethoven. You know..... if you write a string quartet...... your not taking his place.

That said, I adore Beethoven and really if was to try and do something today like "Quite Storm" it would be (well..... I don't mean in an ego way, like I could pull it off) a combination of his middle period, and what the impressionists composers explored with enharmonic modulations.

I like the simple-ness of most Beethoven's themes. I hear a ---- far lesser and inferior - connection between Quiet storm and "The tempest'

I mean ...... this is just soooooo good... Fuck....


This is standard tuning, and a famous piece by Ravel. That open string is a pedal throughout.

Or this piece with the repeating C's.

Again, I am pretty much all in on duo or more. Like the adagio at 2:55 of this video

I was high. Come on man..... you should of guessed that. Blaze, blaze, all day, everyday.

Yes, I have both the audio files and scores. I'll upload and get a link for you. Sincerely..... thank you very much for listening. It's an honor.

 

I got my ass handed to me in this thread. Metallica.......such a "Dad" comment. Look at that sentence. What the fuck ? It's always weird when you speak the same language but have no idea of the meaning.

What's up with that cover. A camel that has a penis for a nose is crying because it's really a train going thru a tunnel in outer-space.

Oh come on..... you can do that. It's Romanza basically. Dude......why not try and write it, post it here and we'll all hurl criticisms at you to make ourselves feel better and we'll get you going.

You know it reminds me of that other quasi - prog rock band I always hated.......... You know that song Silent Lucidity ?

_____________________________

Since we are in the weeds of guitar....... There was basically a rivalry between Segovia and a South African guitarist named Yepes.

Basically the 6 string model, was always the salon instrument for accompaniment. Because of the Sympathetic Resonance factor I discussed above
Yepes was pushing for a 10 string model. Segovia clearly won, but it is making a come a back.

You can really hear the difference

And just because he is one of the only few musical idols I have left.......fuckin Charlie Hunter.

You depressed assed, navel gazing bitches, ........stop fantasizing about killing your neighbors cat and get some groove-a-licousness in your soul.

Fuckin Charlie Hunter. Love that man...... I was at this gig, drinking away and mesmerized. The 3rd gig in 3 nights I had gone too. He lives in Brooklyn....
so great....only about 75 people in the audience. He plays both Bass and guitar parts at the same time

 

Maybe when speaking of black metal in this context you're thinking more of a vibe like "Marduk - Fistfucking God's Planet", while I'm thinking more of a vibe like these two:

For completeness' sake here's the Marduk song:

Spoiler

Thanks! That was quite enlightening! I think I'll need to experiment with tuning at least the two highest strings to something other than standard.

How crazy of an idea would writing for 2 guitars that have 2 different non-standard tunings be?

10 strings and only 3 frets on the lowest strings? This thing was clearly made for Djent!

It was partly meant as a slightly tongue in cheek comment on the increasing genre-fragmentation. I think this counts as black gaze:

She's fairly unpopular among many "trve kvlt" black metal elitists.

 

I assure you ..... I have NEVER thought of "Fistfucking God's Planet" in any context.

Ok...... I listened to about 10 seconds each. Umm.......... no it will never be a thing for me.

About the closest genre wise I have ever had a positive listening experience would be Clint Mansell and his scores.
He is very good as creating an instant "mood". I don't know, that shipped is most likely gone too (for me. Plus the ship really never was there anyway).

Well, you can't talk about "Fistfucking" and then turn around and ask "How crazy of an idea...." now can you ?

The answer is it is perfectly fine. The example above "Doubt" has two guitars tuned to non-standard tunings. No big deal at all.

Those can't be words.

 

That's fine, thanks for listening!

Can't tell you why exactly, but I think I prefer your tracks. I didn't make it through the full Mansell video but I want to hear "Ascension" to the end. You have perfectly captured that beautiful melancholy, that I also like in some of the metal that I listen to.

Thanks! I think then I'll tune one to D-standard, one to C-standard, and from there change the tuning of the highest 2 or 3 strings and see if I can come up with something useful.


I ordered the Ernie Ball Mammoth Slinky strings after watching another video on them. They seem to be exactly made for C-Standard and drop-B on 25.5" scale guitars.

I've always had trouble taking anything in black metal serious. Would you say you're opposed to making black metal if you don't fulfill a list of criteria, and if so, what are they? Or do you just mean things like using satanist imagery without actually being satanists seems like a weird gimmick? I can see the later, but on the other hand this stuff has basically permeated popular metal culture and gets more and more devoid of its original meaning. I don't think this stuff is still shocking anyone in the metal scene either. And for people outside the metal scene it's more or less all the same anyway.