Apex - Epic Brass for Live Masterclass

I'd really love some insight into "Apex", and why precisely Mike said it lacked musicality. I understand why it didn't work from an overall "production sound" standpoint (I still thought it sounded good live). Obviously the overall "loud, ocean of sound" thing doesn't work live, and the high loud notes are strenuous. I get dynamic balance too, and why you wouldn't be able to hear string ostinatos over top of FFF brass. What about it was problematic musically, specifically, or is it related to the above? Lack of lyrical cohesion within each line? Lack of dynamics and space for breathing? The fact that instruments blend?

Secondly, is there some way to "fix" the piece to make it more realistic and make it work better, or would you just scrap the approach altogether? We desperately (in modern media) need examples of what actual epic sounds like -- not Michael Bay "epic", or trailer music "epic", but Beowulf epic, Odyssey epic, La Divina Comedia epic. As much as it's overdone, real epic is sorely lacking in modern film.

I'd love to understand how the approach to a piece like this contrasts with one of those "really hard to play" Williams epic sounding pieces, unless the answer is simply in the lack of writing from the person outwards.

 

I think this kind of piece just doesn't work with that type of ensemble and isn't necessarily pleasant to play for them. It is 100% production oriented, and to make it work, you would need to record those huge/ridiculous sections separately and then balance them using faders. In my opinion, this takes away the whole point of having a live section playing your music. Definitely a good example of what's the result when you try to make a real group sound like a MIDI mockup.

I think one of the Trombonists mentioned it and said that at this point you would ultimately have to break down the piece and turn this into a sampling session - Which is 0% fun for the players.

Williams, (even though some of his parts are very challenging) always writes idiomatically for the ensemble and the epicness happens because of contrast in the music and the orchestration. Mike always uses those principles and to me, all of the other pieces he wrote for that class, were just as epic, if not more epic, than 'Apex'.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing the video so I can try to understand what I am reading here. I did not watch live.

I see nothing wrong with the score to Apex. Brass can do things like this very effectively. The one potential problem I see is that real horns are not as loud as trumpets or trombones. The volume of 3 horns is about equal to the volume of either two trumpets or two trombones. So some rehearsal time would be needed for the players to balance with each other, but that should be the only problem. I played trombone all my life,and this sort of thing is bread and butter easy playing. Only the balancing should have been an issue. I don't get it.

 

Don't get me wrong, the players have been able to go through the piece without any problems, even though their lips were starting to get tired (I think we were more than halfway through the session). But I think the 'Apex' isn't ensemble friendly - We've got everybody blasting high in their range, and just that, takes away some of the musicality - Now take into account the fact that the horns had to really push it in order to be heard and you've got your problem...

Later, Mike and Neal had them play a bit softer and it actually ended up being ok. But this piece wasn't as successful as some of the other pieces that were sometimes nailed on take one.

This piece taught me a lot because I was persuaded that it would have been successful right off the bat.

 

Thanks for answering @Claude Ruelle but I am still confused. There are only four bars of fortissimo. And the ranges just don't seem very extreme, especially for a college or pro musician. But I look forward to seeing the video.

One thing that has spoiled all of us when using samples is that we get perfect playback. The need for rehearsal time with real musicians is easily devalued.

 

Thanks Mike, interesting, thanks for explaining it to me.

In the world of brass bands . . . breathing is entirely optional.

I could never have played this at the speed they take it, but Black Dyke are the best brass players in the world. Just thought this might be a fun listen for those who have never heard a true brass band. Obviously, they do need to breathe, but with staggered breathing within a section, it becomes difficult to tell exactly where it is happening.

 

You're telling us that sometimes, players do those recording sessions without even knowing how's the music supposed to be like? So they just show up and play some long FFF lines without any context whatsoever. How sad is that...

Did she tell you how she felt about that? Because for me it would take away all the fun of being a session musician.

 

I think that's the point of Apex. Whether or not the musicians know what the end result is supposed to sound like, it doesn't matter because the sound is a not a natural sound you can get from the ensemble. The epic sound comes from the production.

 

Thanks Mike! I was somewhat confused as I thought you said it doesn't work musically, and I was wondering how one would "fix" that.

That makes more sense though, and I can see why it would be disappointing if you were after that produced sound (and are ignorant of how real ensembles sound). It honestly did sound quite good played by those players though, and I think your and Neal's points of i.e. starting the intro quietly to improve contrast did improve the overall sound of the piece; however, the other pieces you wrote sound amazing as played by them. I'm interested in watching it a few more times when you're finished editing, as after hearing your other pieces performed I all of a sudden feel irritated or "suffocated" by brass parts I hear now that don't really allow for breaths. I'm realizing too in other good scores that I've heard some "growing brass" parts that are similar to the intro, but they're often at low dynamics and other orchestral colours end up changing the direction of the piece and developing appropriately.

I can already see where one might change aspects of the piece in order to improve it. I'm unsure if you're interested but I'd love to see how you yourself would alter the composition of the piece, or if you would simply scrap it.


I do find it tragic that players are so separated from playing as an orchestra now. This class has been an eye-opening experience from which I've already learned a great deal, especially in this regard. And it's one thing to mention it, but to actually see the reactions of the players and hear from them personally how important writing properly for their instrument and section is has been profound.

 

For those that watched the live stream, does anyone else remember someone pointing out an incorrect notation? I'm fairly sure it was during Apex. If anyone else remembers, can you confirm whether the Trombones' B Natural in m16 was meant to be a Bb?

 

Mike, if any of the parts were marked up in an interesting way, it would be cool to see those.