Noob Question #1...copying MIDI for other instruments?

Not sure I understand your question(s) Scott,

Do you mean a track for every articulation? (like legato on channel 1, sustain = 2, spiccato = 3, etc.)
Lot's of people do it that way.
Is it cheating? No, but it does allow you to cheat easier than if you had just 1 track per instrument and used key switches instead.
Technically with 16 midi tracks you could have your instrument playing 16 techniques/articulations at once, in real life you can only divide your section so far.
If getting your stuff played by real musicians isn't a goal and you don't care if your compositions are 'fake' or 'impossible' then layer away. Your imagination is the ceiling..
Besides.. you're telling a computer to play samples of an instrument. Isn't that cheating to begin with?

To be fast every track should be accessible right away, just scroll to the right instrument and record.
That would be called your 'template', your routing is saved here as well as your eq settings, reverb etc.
Loading instruments when you need them takes a lot of time and energy away from composing.
Getting your template to sound good.. now that's a whoooole nother story (and mostly a huge pain in the ass)

As for panning, there is a standard concert seating (with some minor variations), google these and adjust your template panning accordingly.
Think of the space in the room as L-C-R- and front > middle > back of the room (and the orchestra as sections: winds / brass / perc / other / strings)

That's about as basic as I can put it.
Pick up Mike's 'virtuosity' class.. it will give a lot of things to think about (plus a couple of cool tricks)
Orchestration 1&2 will help you a lot with your other questions. I'd recommend taking these first (orch 1 especially)

 

Don't worry about the noob stuff, everyone has to start somewhere. This thread will be here long after you've learned this and many other things and it might help someone else who stumbles upon it while looking to solve a similar problem.

There's no such thing as cheating There's no Audio Police who'll come and fine you if you don't adhere to some rules. If it sounds good, who cares what you used and how you did it.

But in this case it's directly related to how it'll come out. The sound of an orchestra is many players playing all together, each playing slightly differently, so take it as you will. Doubling and quadrupling guitars are meant to sound like it's still only one person playing that.

At the moment, you CANNOT achieve the actual real expressive sound of an orchestra with VI. Maybe in 10-20 years, maybe never. But right now, nope. Sample Modeling products go a long way, because they're modeled instruments that you have to play an control every nuance of, and are thus incredibly expressive, rather than being a recorded performance, which is what samples are. However, even SM are virtual instruments.

So you're using samples and already limiting yourself in terms of possible expressiveness in VI space, but even if you're using SM or something similar, it's not like the actual live instrument, or a group of seasoned talented players playing in a beautiful sounding room.

Don't shoot yourself in the foot twice by copy-pasting MIDI. Like I said, you're already using samples. Timings are never the same, and certainly never on-grid quantized all the time.

I personally perform for every instrument. If the line's too fast, I slow the tempo down while recording. If I mess up, I re-do the take. Until it's right. It's certainly time consuming, but that's why I sketch it up first.

Sketching goes fast if you copy and paste MIDI and then do adjustments to dynamics/velocity quickly for each MIDI. But once you're done and happy with the piece, I'd highly suggest you to perform every single one of them, especially the shorts, and you'll notice how it feels much more alive. This is a problem in sustain (and all CC - Dynamics) articulations of libraries that feature Ensemble sections, since the whole ensemble will have exactly the same dynamics curve and timing, hence why they're mostly used for sketching. I mean if it's going straight to the scoring stage then who cares, it's only meant to make your composition audible, but if the mock-up is what's going into a finished product, it should be as good as it can be.

 

You're welcome! I have to say this: I know it's just a hobby and you're throwing ideas, but I'd suggest taking one and making it into a finished piece. It doesn't have to be revolutionary, just finish it. You don't have to be far from composing pieces. Great pieces? Who knows. Like Mike pointed out many times, John Williams was in his 40s when he started writing music that he's known for today.

Get to the point in writing where you say "Okay, that's it", because finishing a piece, orchestral or generally any other introduces numerous problems that are never present while writing the original melody, all from how to start, where to go, how to go back, when to back, when to change colors, to what colors should you change etc., and in tackling those problems you'll come to know them, expect them and grow in that way. Once you identify those problems, the easiest method is to go and hear how others solved them - listen and transcribe. Because you'll have to do it eventually, so might as well start now. Write a shitty piece. But make it a finished shitty piece. Then write another one and try and make it less shitty. If it turns out even more shitty, that's fine. You'll do better next time. But now I'm going way off topic

When you finish your piece, perform it. I don't know if The Orchestra has sections or solo instruments for Woodwinds and Brass, and depending on that is the expression that you can squeeze out of it. It also shouldn't take you nearly as much time as it would if you were using Sample Modeling where you play in every single instrument. So once you do it, you can compare the performed version with the drawn-in one and note that difference in the future when you're just sketching, so that you know it'll be fine and now it shouldn't bother you so much while you're writing.

 

Yeah good advice already. Don't copy and paste parts and expect realism. Imagine everyone in your band playing the same guitar riff, in Unison. If you recorded that and listened back to it, sure, everyone is playing the same notes but check out the timing. Everyone is playing that same part differently (and let's not forget the difference in dynamics). Why would this be different for any ensemble of live players? Copying and pasting is a great way of quickly sketching stuff out but replay everything in. And avoid quantising (humans are not robots) unless you have to, for example, quantising massive impact sounds or drum hits where you should line the transients up. I say "should" but the truth is that you should do anything you want but it you don't line those transients up you will likely have huge problems with clashing frequencies all fighting for their own space.

 

Hi Scott,

I myself am a metal guitarist in my origin ;-) I played 16+ years and my highest point was a gig with Stratovarius. So - back to topic:

Although some things are repetition of prvious posts:

• Do not copy-paste, play every line in individually
• Use the Modwheel/Dynamics - think of how a real player would play it
• Strings need to rebow, Winds/Brass need to breath - keep that in mind. Mike Vertas Tip is: Blow into your thumb. Meaning put your Thumb on your lips, close your lips around it and blow against it. Basically, when you run out of breath, they do too
• Panning and positioning are important. Listen to a real orchestra and hear where they are. If you can't attend a live concert, some good recorded scores will do too.
• Panning is often very traditional - when you search google for "Orchestra seating" you'll find pictures and schematics
• Considering position - Mike Verta has some tips in some classes. To put something further away, don't use reverb for that. If you don't have a spatialization tool at hand (e.g. VSS2 or MIR), then you can try and roll off some high frequencies. Think about how your Guitar amp sound when your ear is right near it vs. when you're standing a couple of meters away - you can test that at home maybe. Try to listen to what the difference in sound is
• Yes, for sketching out - go ahead - copy as much as you want.
• If your timing is good - as metal guitarist with a band you should be pretty good on timing - then maybe even play it in without a click. The natural nuances in "getting slower and faster" are how orchestras get conducted as well. Apart from ass-tight action scenes most tracks benefit largely from some "air"
• Considering VIs - You don't need 20 different libs, you need one set of good libraries (See the "What are you using" thread).
• MIDI Mockupping is a skill on it's own - listen to beasts like e.g. Thomas Bergensen. Often - there are Libraries layered for their sound e.g. CSS layered with LASS to get a specific string sound. I'm a certain kind of purist, I compose and use in that way, that an orchestra could play it (at least I try to).
• Finally: VI's don't have the expressiveness of a real orchestra. BUT you can come close, and close enough so that the normal listener can't tell the difference. The composer will, but the normal guy on the street won't.
• Keep your goals in sight - what do you want to achieve? When your goal is to record a live orchestra, mockup skills might not be the right place to invest the large chunk of time in. If you want to do mockups only (and maybe a recording far later - if) then production (mix, master) and performance (Modwheel, velocities, breath/bow) are important

That's my two cents on this matter - Remember - my opinion might be wrong or "not informed enough" - so take what's good, remove what's bad and add your own flavor to it ;-)