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Saint Vladimir - A Symphonic Tale - Feedback Requested

Discussion in 'Critique & Feedback' started by Paul T McGraw, Oct 16, 2017.

  1. #1 Paul T McGraw, Oct 16, 2017
    This piece tells the story of Saint Vladimir and Princess Anna who brought Christianity to Russia.

    The piece is classical, specifically late-romantic in style. I am a hobbyist with no pro aspirations. I am using VSL woodwinds in pairs. The brass is mostly Berlin Brass, two horns, trumpet, two trombones, bass trombone and tuba, with two VSL horns and one VSL trumpet. The percussion is all VSL. The strings are VSL Orchestral Strings doubled by CSS with as close to an equal balance as I could manage. The Berlin Brass and CSS are in their natural ambience. For the VSL instruments I used MIR Pro with the Teldex setting. I did a 3db EQ cut of the strings at 2,750 hz to reduce harshness.

    I would very much appreciate any comments on the composition, midi performance, or mix. I have included Soundcloud and Orfium links and also the full score.

    .

    Orfium link:
    https://www.orfium.com/track/629728/saint-vladimir-a-symphonic-tale-paul-t-mcgraw/
     

    Attached Files:

    Alexander Schiborr likes this.
  2. #2 Doug Gibson, Oct 17, 2017

    Ahh..... so it's his fault.

    You have some really great moments in this work. Well done !

    My general comments, and this is the subjective stuff first,

    1. It seems between two worlds: You have actually picked a subject that, for once, would actually really work well with the modal/hero stuff that is so in vogue these days. There are numerous examples of the Russian composers drawing inspiration from the same sources that might be worthwhile thinking about. The piece sounds easily as much "Austrian" influence. (Bruckner, Brahms etc.)

    (* I did read the theme at 142 was taken from the oldest of Russian hymns. It's the way you handle the material. It's more in a Tchaikovsky, or Great gates of Kiev manner in your piece)

    2. It seems to me this would actually make great material for a concerto, or at the very least more individual instrumental moments.
    Even programmatically: Individual vs big obstacles, or the classic hero's journey (if you have that point of view)

    ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Technical advice:

    1. Make you dynamic markings bold. If you are conducting it actually makes a BIG difference. Right click the mouse and enter them that way, or if on a mac hold down the apple key when writing the dynamics. Let me show you the difference:

    Screen Shot 2017-10-16 at 7.24.53 PM.png

    Screen Shot 2017-10-16 at 7.25.09 PM.png


    2. from 28-38: I would, if giving to real players, consider dovetailing the woodwinds. You go a long time without letting them breathe. Yes, they can workaround, but writing idiomatically is always a good thing.

    Also, I would re-voice your woodwinds. Your Oboe is clashing with the Bassoon, and creating some dissonance that I am not sure you are aware of. At the very least it is taking away from the harmony by unison doubling. Pop it up an octave.
    Screen Shot 2017-10-16 at 7.40.42 PM.png

    3. Make sure you phrase things consistently: For example at 70 to 72


    Clarinets and Flutes slurs differ

    Do you really want the oboe
    louder ? Dim, for Clar/flutes bar 72

    End of note durations. Should each end at different time
    Screen Shot 2017-10-16 at 7.47.20 PM.png


    Some music excerpts:

    I typeset this score by my good friend and mentor, who wrote a solo piano piece (later became a concerto) that I felt bridged the two worlds (modern/past) very well



    Of course the Vespers are stunning (pick any)



    You could listen all day to this stuff:


    Off topic, but I think you might like it. I just discovered for myself this soundtrack



    Un-real. It is amazing. Who the hell was Victor Young, and how have I never heard of him ? It's fantastic
     
    Paul T McGraw likes this.
  3. #3 Paul T McGraw, Oct 17, 2017
    @Doug Gibson thank you very, very much for you very detailed comments and excellent suggestions. Let me first thank you for looking at the score so closely. You are very correct regarding dynamic markings. There is a setting in Sibelius that makes them all bold, and I should have used it. Good catch. I did not see the oboe/bassoon thing. Thank you. The very brief dissonance does not bother me, but it does weaken the bassoon line so I will adjust. The dynamic suggestions you mentioned at measures 70-73 are good, and I will change. In the actual midi-performance I do not believe I followed those marking in any event. I do often use an orchestration technique I picked up somewhere, can't remember where exactly, of emphasizing a phrase ending diminuendo by staggering the ending instrument notes. So that part at least was intentional. If I am ever lucky enough to get a performance that will hopefully not be a problem.

    Awesome music suggestions. I particularly like the Samson and Delilah. I will be listening to all of them and may respond further to these but now to the hard part.

    Subjective reactions, or aesthetics as I like to say. Yes, I was originally thinking Vladimir would be a great subject for a trombone concerto. But who am I kidding. I am struggling to teach myself how to write in the late romantic German or Austrian tradition. I don't think I could pull off a full concerto, and.especially not if I tried to write more like Mussorgsky and less like Tchaikovsky. I still have a long way to go, if I live long enough. My degree in music composition was in 1976 and included only "20th century techniques" which I am now ashamed of. In one of the @Mike Verta videos, the Structure one, he is hitting random notes on the piano, very atonal, and says "that could be my PHD in composition at USC." He is so right, garbage, just garbage. Anyway, it would be interesting to learn more about the modal/hero music that is currently in vogue. Can you point me in the right direction?

    More individual instrument moments would be wonderful to write. Do you think anyone would want to hear more of this piece though? It is already about 8 minutes. My usual tendency is to be too "long winded" lately, so I hesitate to add material. Thank you again for listening and giving this so much of your time. You have been of great help. Please call upon me if I can assist you in any way.
     
  4. #4 Doug Gibson, Oct 17, 2017
    Sure. You're welcome

    Perhaps yourself. Look, outside of trombone players, no one know how the fuck to write for the thing. You are free from the weight of the cannon. If you work with a real professional they can tell you all about it. It is a wonderful instrument. Bass Trombone might even be better. The forgiving aspect of a trombone (or Tuba) concerto is you don't have to worry about the orchestra drowning out the soloist. Also, it might not have to be a "Full on Concerto". Just give it a lead role. It really has many colors to it.

    They already wrote like that. Write like Paul T. McGraw

    I have done far worse things, and not ashamed ! Whatever life experiences you had, made you who you are today. Plus anyone writing a song about Christianity needs to feel guilt and shame ! You're perfect for it. (Ha !...... I laugh at my own jokes)

    I do this too. But be clearer and more intentional. Give a ending dynamic.

    Ex. 1
    Screen Shot 2017-10-16 at 11.03.56 PM.png

    Often, and this is sometimes contentious, modern scores will tie over the barline. This is both for the clarity issue, and some composers don't trust players, and feel notes are often cut short.

    Screen Shot 2017-10-16 at 11.04.58 PM.png

    Oh, shit...... it's everywhere. Let me offer some that are more tailored to your goals

    1st: (bass) Trombone Solo abilities




    2. You might like some music of one of my 1st mentors, and wonderful composer/person. He draws inspiration from his orthodox faith
    (how did we become friends ? )



    https://www.reverbnation.com/christoshatzis/song/1171251-everlasting-light

    https://www.reverbnation.com/christoshatzis/song/1171256-odd-world-from-constantinople



    Sure.... if it's good. Just write music that you love and die happy you did.
     
    Alexander Schiborr and Paul T McGraw like this.
  5. #5 Alexander Schiborr, Oct 17, 2017
    Hey Paul,
    thank you for sharing. I like your piece. It is very meaningful and has some nice melody and chord progressions. The vibe is almost there. The only thing, and this is because I am a mockup enthusiast is a bit the technical rendering which sounds a bit midi to my ears, but this doesn´t diminish your composition. I try to disconnect lately from this technical aspect just to enjoy also tracks even if I find them from a technical treatment not that good.
    So maybe my technical advice could be:

    - work more with the dynamics of the longer sustained notes. I feel there you can try to inject more life.
    - Also how about the tempo? try a little to make the tempo more uneven and take the role as a virtual conductor not only dynamic wise, also in terms of the tempo.
    - The spatial placement is a good start. I notice some stuff like the snare..it is very far in the background..too far for the rest..and has too much Thumb on its 200 Hz
    - the melodic percussions are too loud..and have to much stick sound..for the size and ambience of the perceived performance. (2:30 min around).

    - The winds have too much bulk and bottom end..they are a way heavier than they should sound like in such an enviroment..maybe a look if you can make a slight lowcut on some of the instruments there?

    Now a stylistic thing:

    I like the orchestration. It is monumental and thick. Sometimes I feel you should also work a bit more with different articulations and make more contrast between "thick dense" orchestration versus "tiny sweet". You have some spots where you do that, but too less for my taste. Most of the time you have long long notes..and sustained scapes of strings. Plus Brass and Winds who are underlining it. Maybe you can..but this is a matter of taste..also to try out different texture techniques..not every instrument need to go and play long notes..when there is the melody who is doing it. I mean..it is hard to explain..but sometimes it feels a bit very heavy throughout the track with all those doublings in harmonies which follows the same articulations. Some exceptions exluded. Also: Work with PAUSES..do some silence sometimes..this is something..I have fucking hard times on myself to do..but it is gold..to do sometimes little short breakes wich are intentionally bound to composition and reflects in orchestration.

    But Paul: Don´t get me wrong. You are a very nice guy and you very often give me tips and feedback on my own stuff and I hope that is ok that I give you some few thoughts from my side. I am not very academic I have to say, just how I feel, and so take my feedback just a relaxing statement.
     
    Paul T McGraw likes this.
  6. #6 Paul T McGraw, Oct 17, 2017
    Thank you @Alexander Schiborr for listening and offering feedback. I have read all of your comments very carefully and will read your comments again to try and learn from your ideas. Did you get a chance to look at the score? I would much prefer honest feedback, even if a criticism rather than a false complement, so never hesitate to be honest with me. I write from a purely classical perspective, so we may not always see things the same, but I know you write wonderful music, and I have great respect for your midi skills.

    As I mentioned I will go over all of your comments carefully, but I am particularly intrigued by your comments regarding the woodwinds. As I mentioned above, I am using VSL woodwinds, and I know you are using Spitfire. I have never heard anyone refer to the VSL woodwinds as being bottom heavy. Do you mean the bassoons? Or are you talking about the low brass? In this piece I am using Berlin Brass. And the piece does feature the trombone as the voice of Vladimir. Thanks again for listening and commenting.
     
  7. #7 Doug Gibson, Oct 19, 2017
    You know, I was thinking about this piece while walking my daughter to school this morning.

    I think, if it was me, I would go in a more polyphonic direction. Particularly in the 2nd half when you quote the melody.

    That would make a lot of sense in my mind. It's the rhythmic aspect (not talking about groove) that is letting your piece down.

    I can, at a later day, make an example or two of the theme if you would like. I could also be as simple as a Passacaglia.

    Some pieces that spring to mind that might be worth looking at.

    Isle of the Dead: Uses the cantus firmus dies irae



    Symphony 7 mov. 2: Makes so much out of so little



    Symphony 4 opening moment; the power of moving some shit off of 1




    Well,....... yours truly: A simple passacaglia. the conductor took it too slow :-(

     
    Paul T McGraw likes this.
  8. #8 Paul T McGraw, Oct 19, 2017
    Hi Doug, I am surprised and pleased that Saint Vladimir came to mind for you again today. Please feel free to use any part of my composition as you wish, only attribution is required, and the actual melody of "Praise the Lord" from the Obikhod is of course public domain.

    I am sorry to hear that you find my orchestration of "Praise the Lord" is letting the piece down. Up to that moment, the piece is moderately (very?) complex with quite a bit of counterpoint. In fact, there are few sections that do not contain counter-melodies and other contrapuntal devices. The reason that I chose to create a simple harmonization of "Praise the Lord" was to musically express the transformation for Vladimir and Russia brought about by conversion to Christianity. My goal was to achieve something both simple and beautiful that would stand in stark contrast with what came before. Far from being uncertain, doubtful or unhappy about that section of the work, I am very certain and confident that I did write exactly what I intended to write in that section. And perhaps sadly for me, I like it, and am happy with it. Nevertheless, I am grateful for the suggestion. And I am grateful that you have shared so much of your time with me on this work.

    I truly enjoyed listening to "Mesmerized (Final Movement)" and particularly enjoyed the orchestration. Lovely piece. I wrote a pasacaglia called Antarctica that is on my Soundcloud page. I have been fond of the form since I first heard the Bach Passacaglia in C way back in 1969.

    For some crazy reason I finished two works at almost the exact same time. Saint Vladimir, and a completely secular work called Once Upon A Midnight Grimm, A symphonic Halloween Tale. Actually I finished the Grimm piece a few weeks before Vladimir, but I can;t seem to get happy with my mix. I hope to post it in the next few days, and that when I do so you will share your thoughts about that work as well, good or bad. Probably bad, but maybe not. :)
     
  9. #9 Doug Gibson, Oct 19, 2017
    I didn't mean it like that. I have no intention of writing a piece with it. Just posting on the forum a few short illustrations of other possibilities of how the materials could develop.
     
  10. #10 Doug Gibson, Oct 19, 2017
    I got ya. Cool..... then congrats !

    All the best
     
  11. #11 Alexander Schiborr, Oct 20, 2017
    Hi Paul,

    Yes I just look and listen. For instance on Page 7-8 I noticed that you double a lot of your strings trems with the Woodwinds. I think doubling is a fair technique and you can do it. For my taste I like not to double to many stuff..instead of I like to pack and create more inner voices harmonies. I don´t know if I explain that right. I mean the ostinato strings has enough power already and with that doubling it somehow clouds or overpowers your melodic statement. Now it can have different reasons: One just that the dynamic markings, or just a point of sample balance in your mockup.

    And another point where I feel it is just production wise. You are working with VSL, right? I think often that when putting VSL instruments with reverb, and a bit eq that this is not enough to make them sit right in the mix. They feel either too thin and distant or to heavy with their lower frequenccy spectrum.
     
    Paul T McGraw likes this.
  12. #12 Paul T McGraw, Oct 20, 2017
    Hi Alexander,

    Thank you for giving the piece another listen and for commenting. Yes, I often double the strings with woodwinds. Perhaps I should do that less often.

    The brass is Berlin Brass, Woodwinds are VSL, and strings are VSL doubled by CSS. I am using MIR Pro for the VSL woodwinds, using the Teldex setting. Which VSL instrument do you think sounds too distant and heavy? Or too thin and distant? Surely you don't mean the Berlin Brass? Or perhaps you find CSS too thin and distant? Or are we just talking about the woodwinds?

    I know that many people, including yourself, prefer the sound of Spitfire products. I also love their sound, I suppose because of their famous hall. I purchased Spitfire Symphonic Strings and I could have used SSS in this piece. I actually tried SSS at first. And while I like the sound of SSS playing many things, when I try to use them as I would a real string section, it just doesn't seem to work for me. Despite lots of effort with trying to polish the CC's and note lengths I find myself changing my writing to fit what SSS can do well. It especially thwarts me when I have rapid changes from legato to staccato to arco within a single phrase. With VSL, anything I can write, it can play. CSS is not quite as flexible as VSL, but it is about halfway between VSL and SSS in flexibility. I have already purchased the new VSL Synchron Strings I and looking forward to trying it out as soon as it is ready.

    Perhaps it would be fun to try a little experiment with comparing string libraries. I will give that some thought.
     
  13. #13 Alexander Schiborr, Oct 20, 2017
    Well, it is fine that you double. But maybe not all the time where you probably don´t need it. Or if you do it intentionally because you want to have a specific thickness or spreaded line or even color then maybe you should do it sparingly and think about what color gives you the most and not just like addding things to the palette for the sake to fill out the stave, you know. Just my suggesion.

    No, I was mainly talking about the winds. Let me listen again..I will have to look that up. Yeah SSS is much different and more tailored towards film music, though in my opinion you cando also romantic lush music with it. But the learning curve is there and it takes time.
     
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