More Adventure Stories

I’ve been really busy working recently but thought your piece is great and would love a look at the Midi mock-up. I seriously need to get better (at everything).

 

Thanks so much. I shall look at it tomorrow. Very kind!

 

Awesome thanks, I'll look at the midi when I can.

Won't there be a point where you can't develop an idea anymore with the piano and have to do the rest orchestrally?

Although you generally have melody and harmony 'stay out of each other's way' you'll have runs and other glue potentially that you wouldn't do in a piano piece.

I like your A and B sections and it'll be nice to see how in detail you merge your main and secondary themes.

As I've been going back go basics with writing I have to his analyze how to add new motifs with the main melody but not loose to the main melody when moving forward.

In this conversation when do you decide to create a B section containing the melody of A or create a B section which has a totally new idea (Rock / Pop is bridge maybe). I thought I was pulling this off but feedback here said I was loosing the melody a bit in my pieces so hence my question.

I'm going to re-watch the comp 1/2 videos from Mike when I get some time. I saw them long ago but I think a review is in order.

 

Alexander, may I comment? I'm very impressed with what you've been doing. However, while there's something exciting about both this piece and the orchestration, there's also something that bothers me. Its lacking clarity. In the midst of a wild JW chase scene, the orchestra is moving at a fast and furious pace but I can still hear clearly each line and instrument. In your piece, I can hear that you are attempting to achieve this as well by displacing the instrumentation so that the instruments contrast each other (linearly) rather than clutter on top in a vertical stack. So I can clearly hear the concept of what you're attempting to achieve. However, the end result is not satisfying to my ears as I'm constantly struggling to grasp onto something that isn't muddled or suddenly obscured by the next instrument. Its almost as if the piece doesn't have enough time to breath. If there were a way to de-clutter the orchestration (or maybe the realization or the reverb?), I think it could work really well possibly. I hope this all makes sense. Its very hard first of all to pin-point these issues let alone put them into words.

btw, (not to compare, but for learning purposes) I notice that this is one area where Mike Verta's orchestrations really excel. He allows plenty of time for the listener to digest the musical idea before pulling the ear to the next one. He does this both with composition and with orchestration. I'd say that in your piece, the composition itself is pulling me very quickly from one sound to the next. In the piano version, I can digest it more easily (yet changes are happening still rather quickly). However, when you translate it into orchestration, the jumps from one instrument timbre to the next (while great orchestration technique and concept) are happening too fast for me. Maybe my brain is too slow (old guy syndrome?) or maybe there is some technique you might be able to utilize that I can't quite place my finger on here? I wish Mike Verta would jump in here and comment as you're problem is at such a high level, I think we need input from a master as I don't know how to further explain or comment in a helpful way. We need an experienced orchestatration jedi.

EDIT - Just heard TJ's version that you're referencing. WTF? It sounds like he's on provigal (Limitless), cocaine and Redbull© all at the same time while writing this. While TJ's Epic style is not my favorite, I do have to say that I can clearly hear all of the lines and instruments in his mix. Is it a matter of mixing or composition? That is my question for Mike. I hear some clear differences here in terms of technique but I can't put my finger on what they are (this frustrates me to no end!). I don't want to comment without being able to add something helpful here but this one baffles me.

 

Great, because I hate making comments that aren't helpful to someone (which is all to easy to do on the internet).

I know that TJ has done recordings at Capellan so its very possible some of it is live. That orchestra does LOTS of chops and edits to get through a session. They basically go phrase by phrase to make the time deadlines. So regardless, there is a lot of editing.

In the orchestrated version, the first 10 seconds sounds very muddy to me.
10-20 seconds is fairly easy to follow but sounds muddy - I think this is is a realization issue more than anything else IMO.
20-30s sounds very busy and is hard to follow but I think may be partly a combination of issues. I can tell when its a mixing issue, but I think some is more of an orchestration issue too although I'm not good enough to tell you what the problem is. Thats for Mike or Conrad Pope to answer.

The piano version is quite easy for me to follow. Still, the composition is a bit frenetic but that's not a problem, just the style. I would suggest you listen to some of Prokofiev's piano versions of his orchestrations as he uses some very complex language yet there is always a strong sense of clarity. Cinderella best exemplifies this although it may be hard to get access to the orchestral scores (they are out of print I believe). Regardless, the same is true for all of his pieces so its something maybe worth looking at if you're interested.

I think the line between complexity and clarity need not be so delicate as demonstrated by Prokofiev and Stravinsky. But how to achieve that? I don't know. What I do know is they were masterful performers and I think this plays an extremely important role. Your piano version is clear enough, but did you actually play the parts in? It sounds very quantized. Maybe its better to play the parts in more slowly to keep a strong sense of the phrasing which is what keeps the musical thoughts intact sometimes. When you lose the phrasing, it becomes hard with a more complex piece of music because the phrasing is often the glue that holds it all together. For example, try playing Scriabin without phrasing and it turns into a gibberish of notes. I understand that you're playing the piano not as a performance, but for sketching out the composition. However, there is a connection between the performance of more complex music working or not. You might have it clear in your head, but it might not translate as well to others. Just saying, as it might be worth trying to set the metronome more slowly and getting the phrasing of the sketch really close to what you intend.

All of the critical comments aside, its exciting to hear what you're doing and I have great respect for your transparency on wanting to learn more and improve. If I were at your level (which I'm not), I would schedule a few lessons with Robin Hoffman or Leon Willet as I think they might be able to give you better feedback than someone like me. You also don't want to waste your time or miss out on focusing on the right aspects and I think they might be able to best direct you in details of orchestration. That would be my advice. I'm also teaching myself so I understand that aspect and its a good approach if you're motivated, have good sources and can continue to learn. However, there comes a time when you might bump the ceiling and need to get some professional outside opinions and I would guess that's where you're at now.

 

I wonder if just having one or two consultations would really cost that much? Maybe the cost of a library or two only and in your case it might be worth far more than the libraries.

Well, you're finding a way to learn what you want clearly so what ever your doing is working. Money problems? Ha! I know about that too and could write books about it (but I'll spare you!). One story I will share. I had a very good friend who was very wealthy and I had just lost a significant amount of money that would drastically affect my lifestyle. I was terribly depressed. He played a game with me where he asked what I would do if I had a million dollars. Well, I thought about it and my answer was actually something that I could pull off without having a million bucks. And then the next question, what would I do next? Same answer, and on and on. His point was to get me to realize that there are many different ways to achieve your goals than having a million bucks. So if you're motivated, which you clearly are, you'll find solutions. Just be persistent and keep at it. I would say you're making significant progress. When I heard what you're doing, I wondered what you're story is. Now there's a guy to keep an eye on!

 

I'm certainly no expert (caveat) so, here's some advice that is worth every penny you pay!

Record each section as stems and listen to each one. Make sure each instrument is clearly heard and balanced and the phrasing is as you desire. Then listen to various combinations of stems to make sure they are blending well together and not clashing. If you have orchestration issues (I think there are some), you should be able to notice these yourself when you listen in stem combinations to hear what is working and what isn't. Also, listen carefully for the reverb when doing this too. Maybe better to err on the dry side at first and add reverb as needed later in the mix? Just a few ideas that come to mind.

And just by doing and doing, you'll gain more knowledge and experience. There is really no better way. Good luck!

 

I like it man. My main comment would be that your orchestration could settle down a little bit I think it's maybe too much too soon..

 

Don't take this as a "Transcription". Based one listening to the passage a few times, I made some bullshit that basically is in the ball park of what he is doing. With the horn and other stuff so loud it clouds up space to hear the strings. I would have to make the strings more audible to get more precise........ that disclaimer said..... the gist of it is here.

Also, if you are only using this as a point of departure there are many things you can do that will give you the same effect., perhaps even cooler.






As far as picking this stuff out, and a method to the madness. Remember not all notes are equal. Some are decoration. When listening to this I first just try and hear what is happening every down beat. Then every 8th note. Often (not always) fast runs are "gap fills"

First fill in to this level (* I am not saying my notes are right





Then, based on how fast it is, I would dovetail these runs. They might over lay samples and "studio magic" too.

I do hear some modal dissonance, but it could just be caused by the tempo. I wouldn't fret over it too much.

You can take pretty much any melody and come up with flashy runs. A very basic melody could be decorated to sound like this.






(You think he will catch it ?)