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Unleashed 7 Piece Revised

Discussion in 'Critique & Feedback' started by Duncan Formosa, Dec 18, 2021.

  1. #1 Duncan Formosa, Dec 18, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2021
    EDIT: Having slept on this I think I might have completely missed the mark on this revision and I don't think I really done / understood what Mike was saying when I made this thread. I Tried to delete it but not sure how. I'll eventually do another update and hopefully it will be a killer piece by the end!




    I think I must have watched Mike review this at least 4 times now so hopefully I've understood everything okay, but here are a few revisions of the piece I submitted to unleashed this year.

    This 1st one is more or less the same as the original, just tried to cut out one of the sections to get to a more satisfying ending and fix the annoying delay in some of the notes that Mike mentioned.




    This second one the changes start at around 1:50, just thought I'd try something that Mike demonstrated in the video, although I don't think I've done it right? Feels like it maybe gets too big that I can't just go back to the quiet part again. This also has an alternative ending



    And here's the section in unleashed where Mike talks about the original just for reference. If you think I've misunderstood anything let me know and I'll give it another bash. Hopefully I can really make something out of this piece!

     
    Jay Polk likes this.
  2. I'm just going to say it: you have a serious talent for melodies. I should probably get your autograph now before you become famous ;)

    Your revision 2 makes me want to orchestrate the piece because while it's already pretty heart-wrenching just on piano, but it's just going to kill on strings. The only comment I have is that I think you can go a little fuller on the right-hand in the 1:34 to 2:00 section. The piece builds up nicely to this moment and I'm feeling that it deserves to go a little bigger/fuller than just continuing the one-finger melody (gorgeous though it is).

    I wish I could be of more use, but I really don't have much more to say. I'm really curious to hear the orchestrated version!

    EDIT: I just remembered I still need to take a look at your The Battle midi file that I got saved.
     
    Duncan Formosa and Jay Polk like this.
  3. Thank you so much! I really appreciate that, though I doubt I'll be going anywhere with my music any time soon!

    I actually done a 3rd revision which I was meaning to post, would be curious what you think. Just a couple of little tweaks, although now that I've listened to revision 2 again after this long I kind of like the ending in that one a little better? maybe if I just refine it a bit.



    Not sure how I'd be able to make this fuller on the piano as my hand is stretching an octave to play the arrpeggio. I'd need to be a better player to figure out what's achievable and what's not, that's the best I know how to play haha!

    Normally when I come up with a tune I have a rough idea on how to orchestrate it (it normally comes out a little rough. I know the sound I'm wanting from having heard other pieces but I don't always know how to get there. Although I think I've gotten a little better as I've been transcribing more.) At the very least I know what instrument plays the melody, bass and chords. But for this one I'm not too sure. I want it to be super SUPER delicate, strings was my first thought but I'm not sure if they can get as delicate as that piano sound can (at least on libraries) then I thought a woodwind instrument but oboe felt too harsh and I didn't get the right feeling with flute or clarinet.

    Everyone else must be hearing what I'm not hearing because you're not the first to say that. But I just don't know what to do with it. I like it just being on the piano. It kind of sums up what I was feeling when I wrote it. Maybe that's made me a little bias in saying it doesn't need orchestrated!

    I'm really looking forward to hearing what you come up with. That's one of the many pieces that have bothered me cause I think there's some decent ideas in there but the orchestration is REALLY letting it down.

    Once I start getting some free time again I'm going to get my head down and keep transcribing now that my sight reading has gotten a bit better. Was looking through what scores I'm going to get at omnimusicpublishing and was gutted when I found that the Back to the Future score only ships in North America. Agh!
     
  4. I echo Matthias' sentiment. This would be a lovely piece orchestrated out. Very nice work.
     
    Duncan Formosa likes this.
  5. Oh, it's absolutely fine on piano, no doubt about that. However, I think it has great potential to be orchestrated.

    Maybe, just maybe you're running into a phenomenon that I personally encountered when I started to write more on piano instead of orchestrating directly. For some reason the thing that always came easiest to me (orchestration) became much harder when I started working from piano sketches. I can't exactly tell you why, so I suppose it's not much help unfortunately. That said, I can easily imagine a variety of different orchestrations for this particular piece. Maybe it's easier with someone else's music because you have a degree of distance from the piece? That has certainly been my experience.

    Clarinet and strings should work quite well for this piece, I think. Maybe it just doesn't sound right in the samples? In this range, clarinet can play quite delicately. Of course, you can also just do piano and strings, or maybe harp and strings. I agree oboe is too piercing a sound for this particular piece.

    I can't promise anything since I still have to get back to you on The Battle, but would you object if I gave the orchestration a shot? Provided you don't feel like doing one yourself? Heck, maybe other people like @Jay Polk would also like to give it a try? Turn it into something of a community challenge?

    I'm just spitballing, it's your piece after all.
     
    Duncan Formosa likes this.
  6. I'm more than happy to let other people have a shot at it. I'm interested to see how other people would go about it because everyone has their own taste.
     
  7. I don't know if this is the right place to do this but here is a time stamp for the Unleashed 7 parts that Youtube did NOT save that I have. the HELP section of this site is not very helpfull, so again sorry if this is not the place. I have two files and so two text files with the time stamps. I don't have a time stamp for the parts Youtube did save.

    Dean
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Can we get the files somehow?
     
  9. Back about a month or so ago I was in the chat and told Mike about my capture of some of the stream Youtube missed, and he basically said he'd get back to me about it sometime. Guess he's busy; hey, life happens. Anyway I'd do it if it's allowed, but as you can see in the text files the mp4 video files are quite large. I don't know if RedBanned has a size limit for uploads. And uploading them in this thread would limit how many people would see them.. It really needs Mike to let me know and if it's ok to upload here then he can transfer the files to his Youtube channel and put them with the other parts that way far more folks would be able to see them. And maybe a sticky for a while here on the home page of RedBanned to let everyone here know.
     
    Jay Polk likes this.
  10. So, for a long period of time I thought "this piece is fine as it is just on piano" and I couldn't figure out a way to orchestrate it no matter how hard I tried.

    Well, after seeing Michaels post on that 1st time orchestra competition I took a look at the orchestra size and thought "this would be a good opportunity to just try it out based on these limitations" and honestly, I'm quite chuffed at the result. Let me know what you all think of this version!

     
    Tom Welsh and Michael Lückgen like this.
  11. #11 Michael Lückgen, Apr 16, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2023
    Sounds great!

    Just a few notes:

    1. The first section going into the second section seems a bit harsh. You got a great comment a while ago from Stephen here https://redbanned.com/threads/the-enchanted-forest.1716/
    He mentioned preparing a new color before you use it. This can be done by using the instrument which you want to introduce, or to add an instrument at the end of the section before, which goes well with the new instrument you want to introduce. Let's say you want to use trumpets in the second section, then you could introduce Oboe at the end of the first, because they have a similar timbre. (At least that's the way I understood his feedback).
    So in your example, where you want to introduce the horns in the second section, you could simply let the Horns play the harmony of the last few bars of the first section. With that you will get a better transition. You can find that kind of writing all over scores btw. Have a look at the Pines of Rome trilogy for example.

    2. In the 7-8th bars of the third section, maybe add a pause for the flute and clarinet to breath there.

    3. Near the end, after you stopped for two bars: Looks like a perfect opportunity to add some subtle counterpoint in the strings. I'm thinking of maybe just letting the celli go down on the 5th bar there, or something. A bit more interest here and there maybe.

    That's all I have. Take it with a grain of salt, since, as you know, I'm also just learning all this stuff, so I might be wrong here and there.
     
    Duncan Formosa likes this.
  12. #12 Tom Welsh, Apr 16, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2023
    Loved it, Duncan. Seems like a very legit, textbook execution of your piano piece - down to the titanicesque flute and piccolo* layers and interlocking string arpeggio accompaniment.

    *Edit: I meant clarinet and flute.
     
    Duncan Formosa likes this.
  13. I think you are going in the right direction, but viola and cello players will hate you, playing almost the same accompaniment for 50 bars, is too boring. Maybe when you change the melody from horns to woods, you can change the accompaniment to other players as well.
     
  14. I was thinking the same thing. But I'm not really sure what I can change it too. I want to keep the same chords, but not sure what else to do with them.
     
  15. Go back to your 2 hands piano version, I think you were playing the accompaniment near the middle C, so maybe you can give the arpeggio to violins. Clarinets are also very agile and they often play arpeggios as accompaniment.
     
  16. The other section I think you can improve is trombones, you've transcribed Mike's piece from LSB class, you know what they are capable of.
     
  17. John Williams often do this kind of pattern when trombones are doing whole notes, a very little change but more interesting that just whole notes, I think.

    upload_2023-4-16_14-3-29.png
     
    Michael Lückgen likes this.
  18. An interesting idea, though there are two things that I'm a little worried with. I just tried switching the accompaniment to the violins at the same octave as I had done the piano sketch, however, despite the fact it works on piano I'm feeling like there's no longer that distinct seperation between the two sections and it's fighting against the melody a little. This could just be an issue with the digital orchestra mind you.

    The other thing to note, I'm writing this with a specific orchestra in mind which would be 1 flute, 1 clarinet, 6 1st violins and 6 2nd violins. That rules out using the clarinet in the accompaniment (at least as it's currently written) since that arpeggio would need to dovetail between 2 clarinets in order for them to breathe. The other thing as I mentioned is if the violins play in the range as I had it on the piano, the fact that 12 violins would be playing against that 1 flute and clarinet might over power them more, hence why I used cellos and violas an octave lower.

    Maybe it would work live. I have no idea. That's always the annoying part of writing without ever being able to test it live.

    Now that you mention it, I do have 1 or 2 ideas that have just hit me where I could do more with the trombones. For example, when the trombones first come in on that build up, once the trumpets do their little counter I could repeat a similar pattern on the trombones. That way the pattern is repeated 3 times accross all of the brass instruments?

    Then after that maybe I could do something similar to what you have shown on the williams piece where the trombones can accent the B and the A for example? That way it goes with the accompaniment, doesn't draw attention to itself and does enough to maintain a pulse?

    Just some ideas. Also, can you show me those 6 bars again but with all the parts or tell me the track and bar number for that Williams track? The reason I'm asking is so I can see how they are being used in context to the rest of the piece to understand the reasoning behind it all.
     
    Matthias Calis likes this.
  19. You could make the violas do triplets, or 16ths notes for example.
    Or mixup the pattern. They could play each note twice (EEGG in a C chord) and a lot more.

    Try stuff out or look at reference scores maybe.
     
  20. I'm kind of in two minds about this. While yes, I agree introducing the instrument ahead of time can help ease into the switch and you're right, it is used a lot, I'm not sure how to fit it into the context of this piece considering how naked the oboe is here. I think introducing the horns too early could potentially distract the listener and make them focus on the horns more the moment they start playing. Might be different if there was already more going on but at the moment it's very very bare. I was hoping maybe the chimes would be able to say "okay, that's over, transition" like that kind of dream like sound you hear in a flashback (hence the title "a reflection")

    I think sometimes you can do it this way? Like in Back to the Future 3 here. Though maybe there's another element to why it works here and not my piece that I have overlooked.


    Ah, okay, I'm glad you brought this up because this was a question I had while I was transcribing a few scores. For example, the bassoons in back to the future have quite a few moments where for about 8 bars there are no breaks added. I figured that because the notes weren't tied together the players would automatically just do the breathing part themselves. For example, if there are 4 bars using whole notes they would know to take a breath right before the bar changes or if there's bars with 2 half notes they would naturally take a breath before they change note. Not sure if players prefer to have the rests added in or if they aren't fussed as long as it's not 10 bars of 1 tied note haha. But it is something I'm curious about so I'm glad you brought that up, hopefully someone can give more clarity if you can write both ways or if players prefer it written with the rests for breaths.

    Interesting idea but this part in particuar I want it to feel very alone. Kind of going back to the solo parts from the beginning. The idea for the journey of the piece is the character is alone in a room reflecting on the past and as he's going through all these great memories it swells and swells until he stops and remembers those memories are nothing but memories now and he's all alone in the room. But then as it swells again that's him putting the past behind him to move onto the next chapter of his life (hence why it's not really ending on a perfect cadence. As if to say, this chapter is closed, but his story isn't done yet.)...At least that was my idea, no idea if that came through the music at all and the description might sound like complete bollocks haha!

    Still, I appreciate the feedback, it's all good ideas, just not sure how to implement them in a way that I want the story to unfold.
     
    Michael Lückgen likes this.

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