Are there hard and fast rules for this stuff?

Orchestration is the first element of mixing. Something that's orchestrated well "mixes itself" as all the instruments sit in natural frequency ranges.

You mentioned the cellos overpowering the violins. This is just a hunch but are your cellos higher than your violins in Z space?

To explain... the z-staff concept is an idae I got from the orchestrator Scott Smalley.

Imagine you took all the staves of music, printed them on transparent slides and piled them on top of each other without caring about the clef... That's your z staff.

Why do this? Because higher strings naturally sound brighter and louder (and a bit more metallic or sharp-feeling). Lower strings have a more warm and syrupy tone. And since the violin, viola, and cello have their strings in almost exactly the same places on the z staff:



You can think of the z staff as your "guide to mixing strings."

So if you have the cellos playing, let's say the D right above middle C, and the 2nd violins play the F# above that, this will be very bad orchestration. You can see immediately that the cellos are more than an octave above the violins in imaginary Z-space. The cellos are not actually "below" the violins after all! They're WAY above them! As a result, they will totally overpower the sound.

A better blend would be achieved by having the cellos play down an octave (playing the open D string, or better yet the D on their G string). Even though there is now an octave+maj3rd between the instruments, they are closer in Z space and will blend. You can then add, for instance, the violas playing the A on the bottom of their staff. Another way to think about this is that all three instruments will now be playing on their 3rd string: the cellos play D on their G string, the violas play A on their G string, and the violins play F# on their D string. Since everyone's playing on the same string, the sound is pretty much guaranteed to blend.

 

To further illustrate the concept, here's some string pads from a random bit of a John Williams score.



Once your brain is turned on to the Z concept (this is starting to sound like Scientology, haha!) you can instantly see that JW & his orchestrator (Conrad Pope) are keeping the strings very close together in Z space. This creates a beautiful, homogenous blend.

 

The problem with this Z concept is that you could have any of those sections play anywhere within the entire range you posted and blend. A closed-position triad with the cellos on the A at the top of the staff with each note in turn on Violas, 2nds and 1sts would be no problem at all, even though within that Z concept the cellos would be much higher than the others. No problem blending at all.

And I don't think for one second that having the F# a third above the cellos played by the 2nd Violins would be bad orchestration because of the Z concept. It would be because that note isn't in the normal range of the instrument, and they'd have to retune for that one note. But if they did, it could be every bit as loud as the Cellos.

For that matter, It isn't the string that's played on so much as the position - in fact, to some degree it works the other way around, since you're going to get a lot more sound from the High E on the fiddle played on the A string than open.

Not saying the 'Z concept' isn't useful - just that it's probably more of a warning indicator than "bad orchestration." As in - check why you're doing what you're doing, right?

 

Brian I don't want to hijack the thread... but I disagree that this is good advice... both as a cellist and as a student of JW's scores. That triad would be not ideal for blending. And I haven't seen a situation like that in his scores. Can you show me one?

For your chord, I would instead think this: divide the violas so that they play middle C and the A below it, and have the 2nd violins divisi play the E and A above middle C. You could have the cellos play the bass 8vb but only if you want extra fullness... it depends on the compositional goal.

The F# above middle C is in the violin's range. Here is a diagram of the chords we've been talking about just so there is no confusion.



If you wanted the cellos to pop out, then all you have to do is make sure they're playing "above" the other strings in Z space. For example:



The cellos will naturally soar over this texture even though the violins and violas are playing a very busy pattern that reaches technically more than an octave "above" the cellos in pitch. In reality the other strings are playing "below" the cellos.

Z staff isn't an iron rule that says "strings must always be together," it's just a concept for figuring out string arranging if your goal is a smooth blend, or a foreground against a background, or any other texture combination.

There are lots of situations where good composers write the strings well apart from each other in Z space. Like this:



Because he has a whole brass section filling in the middle:



The reason I brought up the concept is because @Scott Steinmetz said his piece just had piano and strings. In that arranging situation, I'd be looking at Z space very thoroughly to try to create a homogenous string background for the piano to play against, when the piano takes the lead in the music. And then when strings take the lead, I would want to make sure my string melody was above any other string parts (harmonies/rhythms) in Z space.

 

Yeah let's hear the piece. My advice might be inapplicable... It was only a hunch!

I don't disagree that strings are easiest... I always look at my strings and go "Yeah that'll work, moving on." Meanwhile woodwind parts... nightmarish

 

Scott I didn't mean to discourage you at all! I'd like to hear your music, for real.

 

I really like the bold, dissonant aggressive idea you have at 0:35, I'm sure you could develop that into a full piece. Your seating arrangement for brass, violin & cello feels pretty accurate to me (on headphones). And the strings feel balanced. Sure it's not the best mockup ever, but I'm not spotting any big mix issues to be honest. I'd just focus on taking that cool aggressive idea you have and running with it. Each time you repeat the idea, there's some "empty space" at the end when you're holding down a long note. Think about introducing another instrument, what can they play that "answers" the "question" you started? It could be the vocals or another instrument. It could be above or below Just keep rolling with it and develop the idea!

One more tip might be to work backwards from what you have. What I mean is: the drums are already pegging your track to a very high "energy level." Try taking the drums out of your track (or making them more sparse) and starting with the same idea but a little smaller. Think about what instruments you can use that still have some aggression and menace but less than the drums. And then build up so that what you have at 0:35 is your big musical "hit."

tl;dr Keep going with it dude, I like it.

 

First of all - my bad, I misread 'D above Middle C' as 'D in the middle of the staff.' Which is, of course, way different. Although I'm pretty sure that almost exactly the figuration you're describing then is in the pedal after the primary theme in the 1st movement of Brahms 2, with the violas even doubling that D. And it works!

As for no hard and fast rules: I would think that something to really look at for that would be something written for strings to rule out the effect of other sections, like the Dvorak, Tchaik or Elgar Serenades for Strings. Just looking at the first statement of the theme in the Tchaik serenade, it's all over the place. Both sets of divisi violas are higher than the lower divisi seconds, with the higher voice of those violas almost reaching the higher voice of the seconds. Basically the 2nds are playing in divisi octaves while the violas are playing between those two notes. By Z logic, shouldn't they be far overbalancing the seconds? Then the cellos take the theme and are obviously in a high register for them, but they stay in that relatively high register for the passage that starts with the violins and then veers off to the counterline, while the violas are a good sixth to an octave too high on that Z scale, and then the cellos take over as being the highest on the scale. But it all blends perfectly with no problem. For that matter, a chord almost exactly like the one I described is the first chord on the second page of the Muzgiz edition - a closed voicing with a G# in the Cellos on the top of the bass clef, then the B above it in the SECONDS, the D above it in the Violas, and then the E at the bottom of the treble clef in the firsts. No balancing issues. That's just the first page - well...with one chord from the second!

I have to tell you, Scott - I didn't notice them being overbalanced in the first section. But if there's violins and cellos in the second section - well, are you sure the violins are actually playing something???

 

Scott, Mike said something the other day that was kind of a revelation to me..
It was something along the lines of "I'd rather be the dumbest guy in the room (than the smartest)"
e.g. In one scenario you have people to look up to, things to feel inspired by and you force your brain to work harder in order to catch up.
If you're the smartest guy already you may well be more comfortable, you're also not really growing

So.. stick around!
_T.j.

 

Here's something to try out - give the violins something to do that ISN'T buried!!!

Or maybe you don't actually want them there as much as you thought you did - so try it without them at all!!

 

I wholeheartedly agree. I've come a lot further in various pursuits being a dumb guy asking many questions and reading a lot than being the smartest. Doing this humbly and persistently means you'll climb the ladder soon enough.

And great idea you have here, I really like the vocals as well. Keep at it!

 

Scott, I thought the orchestra balance was fine. I might have brought the violins down an octave when they come in at 0:12, save that octave jump for later.

The main thing that bugged me was the timing. The parts don't feel like they're hitting right on the beat. With sampled instruments, you sometimes need to play (or edit) the notes a bit ahead of the beat to land right on. Turn on your monitor screensaver or something when you listen, if you see things on the beat it might mess with your head. (Vision is stronger than hearing.) You don't necessarily need to put things on a Zimmer Grid, but most DAWs have a "soft quantize" that will move things 30% of the way towards a grid. So it tightens up without getting robotic. There's also groove quantize which can sound cool.

Otherwise, not bad. Keep writing, learning, and posting.