Dragonflight - Shredding on the guitar

Nice playing !!

(The following is NOT a comment on your piece. More power to you, and it sounds like you are really enjoying the process so know
I think it's all awesome. Two thumbs up from me, and keep on rockin out. This is just me having a rant, and talking outloud to myself.)

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You know, and I really have no idea why, but Classical/ Film Music/ Jazz /Classic Rock music from Europe transcends geography.
However something about Metal, and certain Dance Pop music seem to feel an ocean away.

I just hear it and go "Euro-Metal." Certain techno/trance etc. music too. People around me at a live performance would basically be jizzing their pants, and there is just something about it, that I feel left out.....or "this is not my tribe". I will never have that orgasmic, we are about to go to 11, experience with the music. 7 I can do, and often this is where I hover.

I don't mean I don't like it, just could never love it. Only friends.

Take for example The Scorpions. I liked what I know of theirs. Was it...Rock you like a hurricane. It's a good song. Nice riffs.

But could you imagine just stopping in the middle of you day and be like " You know.....of all the things I could do...... Yeah...... Let's rock out to the Scorpions" Who the fuck does that. It's not as absurd as someone voluntarily putting Nickelback in their car.

You remember (and this is NOT s "Euro-metal group) that band from the 80's Journey ? It's like that. There will be these kind of powerful, yeah I'm into it moments (like if your waiting in line at a store for a long time, and someone is playing it loud I can get into a "Don't stop....... love will find you..." meditation) but if I heard a friend say "Hey, look Journey is playing a concert" .....who gives a fuck. I just couldn't imagine waiting in line for hours, paying whatever it cost, and waiting all day so I could hear that jam at the show thousands of other Journey fans.

I guess I have a whole list of the those.

Maiden, Priest, Motorhead ....... had friends really into them, never could get it.

Do you know what I am saying at all ? Why is it that Metallica, MegaDeath, Pantera sound so American to my ears. What's actually in the music.
I hear echo's of Master of Puppets in one of your riffs, but the sound world is totally different.


End of pointless diatribe

 

I think there are enough metalheads here to appreciate this. Nice playing!

Don't forget pop! Abba? Beatles?

Was completely following you until this. I mean I suppose I don't think listening to Nickelback is absurd, but neither do I think listening to Cardi B or Drake is absurd. I just think it's in incredibly poor taste. I'm not sure why the Scorpions would be worse.

I think Journey is great, but I agree here. That is, however, mostly because concerts have to entice me rather seriously with high-caliber musicianship or a particularly spectacular live performance in a suitable venue (read: not a stadium or arena).

These bands had a massive influence on many of my favourites, but I own two Maiden records and that's kind of enough. I went to their concert a while back and after about 45 mins I felt quite "Maiden'd out".

Is it the Thrash roots? Euro-metal tends toward the more melodic side, especially as you get to more extreme metal bands. Haven't quite figured this out but I think it even comes down to something as specific of vocal pronounciation, honestly.

Do you feel different about American metal? Would you go to a Metallica or Megadeath show (or would you have in the past)?

I'm actually curious to know your thoughts on prog-rock: King Crimson, Yes, Pink Floyd, Camel, or more obscure stuff like Magma. The metal bands I favour tend to be much more heavily influenced by them (I'm not referring to Dream Theater), as I'm at a point where I find a lot of "traditional" sounding metal kind of boring, aside from specific classic records -- I still listen to Rainbow, Deep Purple, Dio, etc now and then. I'm not sure why I still enjoy the aesthetic -- musically -- and complexity so much.

Nothing is pointless in the "Bar and Grill" section.

 

This thing is impressive to me in so many ways, just wow! Amazing work as always!

You mean "Euro Dance"? Afaik that was a whole genre in the 90's.

I wonder if you could tell european metal apart from US metal in a blind test. What about Kreator, too Euro for your taste too?

 

To emphasize again I think it's great. I just don't have anything useful to say other than keep on doing it, as it's a blessing to have
your creative, skill, and fun all align. Them's great moments....enjoy em.

Only other thing I could think of, which could be of use, is to say this needs a video . You'll get so much more traction if you do.

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(Back to old-man howl at moon rant: ie. not about your piece)

I don't know...... I think a combination of going to Musicians Institute and NAMM have made we weary of shred anything.

Is it just me, does this video seem slightly , and oddly, like bad 80's porn ? Maybe this reveals way to much of my psychology but
with gym shirt, and horrible reading of lines.............just make it all the way to the end.

Of course Beetles, but I don't think of them as pop.

Fuck Abba.....what ? I know you can make the empirical factual reply, and it would back you up, but I am firmly in Doug Gibson Manifesto land here,
so the preceding sentence closes the case.

See ya later !

A distinction without a difference. If you even slightly value your time on Earth it's absurd to waste it away on things "In incredibly poor taste"

Isn't this the start of the rabbit hole where the absurd human condition is observed of "not having any time" when it's actually all we have.

(I have no idea who either Cardi B or Drake are or their music but I can assume)

My demise into "old fart land began (now I see it in hindsight) when Coldplay was called the best band in rock. It grew even worse when I
learned one year Rob Thomas was the most popular artist of the year. Now that Oxymoron of Nickelback's Greatest hits

(I meant to suggest before that the Scorpions are better, and NB....lesser)

It's not a review of their musical skills. It's pure aesthetic bias I am drawing on. Of course I would simply enjoy the craft of the players -- and this differs in my mind than thinking of a composition --- the "feel" for example.

Basically, because I just don't "identify" with it. I can name so many bands that I respect the players, and would listen to for my own playing, but the compositional voice of music........ man...... I could eat 3 viagra and not get excited at all.

Off the top of my head. Incredible talent............ meh....

Steely Dan
Dave Mathews Bands
Phish (toss in the Greatful Dead)
Boston
Queensrych (or however it is spelled)
Return To Forever (Most things Fusion)
John Mayer

Metallica is the foundation of my 13 year old decision to pursue music as my life's work. I was in a Metallica cover band in highschool.
I waited like 6 hours to get concert tickets for the opening of the "Black" albumn.

First rock concert I ever went to was Alice in Chains, Anthrax, Megadeath and Slayer.

The second concert I bought 2 tickets for the RHCP Blood sugar tour at $12 each. I liked them, but was not a huge fan.
Anyhow, there were 2 other bands opening. No idea who they were. About 3 weeks before the show "Smells like Teen Spirit" starts getting played on the radio, and it was massive. They were band # 2. So I was pretty excited. I can recall being in front of the stadium, but we were both hungry and
we debated -- should we go get some food and get back for Nirvana ready to go, or should we just go in and see this band we had never heard of at all called Pearl Jam.

Bottom line: $12 RHCP, Nirvana, and PJ. Good deal.

I think my musical taste just naturally went somewhere else. Really, after turning 20 years old, ...nothing.

The last album I was just blown away by was "Dirt' by Alice in Chains. Well, a group called "Mad Season" which had the same singer too.

The "Black Album" was the start of the end of the line for me with Metallica. I liked a few songs on it, but not the album as a whole, and it was a
different direction.

Living in PHX, it's a heavy metal town. Megadeath, Tool, Slayer were all living there, and recording.
(I told you about the time I was a hired session player for an R&B singer, and was told to set up next to this "alter" Sepultura had made as
they were recording an album there. I said "Hell, fucking, no". Seriously not a chance. I don't believe in the spirit world, but I sure as hell don't fuck
with it either.)

As a film "Some Kind of Monster" was brave, and entertaining. But man........ the "magic" in their playing was just totally gone.
There simply is no envelope to push ...IMO. Same with GnR. that line between cool or camp, Death Metal or Dad Metal is very thin sometimes

I don't know any other them outside of Pink Floyd. I mean..... Pink Floyd.... what else can be said. The Zenith of concept records.

The only guitar player who I really wish I could play like would be Charlie Hunter.

 

Never heard of them...... no idea.

I am just out of that world. Back in my day we had 6 strings only on our guitars and we liked it that way.

 

Only 6? Ahhahaha... Nowadays we're at 20 or so:

But I feel old too, my first proper guitar (after the obligatory piece-of-crap beginner's cheap strat copy) only had 7 strings. Not even 8, laughable by today's standards!

That can be changed:

A few days ago I started listening to Ackercocke again and even started to practice a couple of riffs from their song "Leviathan".

 

I can understand that. Considering how steeped in guitar I can be, there are really only a handful of "shred" players I really find hold my interest for more than a song or two and I can count them on one hand. They also distinctly don't shred for the sake of it and treat it as more as a tool in the toolbox. The 80s were a pretty good time for guitar, especially with Yngwie. Didn't get into the others, honestly (though I'm comparatively young and discovered Yngwie later).
The problem is treating it as a trick, which an awful lot of guitar players seem to do still.

That's fair. You should be safe saying this in Australia. Pretty sure you say this anywhere near Sweden and you'd get lynched. I like Abba but what's most interesting is how widespread their influence is.

Yeah good point. I just didn't understand why NB was less absurd than the Scorpions. I don't know why I don't ever put on any Journey or Scorpions but still listen to Deep Purple every so often. Blackmore is hard to get away from in his heyday.

I thought you meant NB is more tolerable than Scorpions, but I'm glad you meant something else . That said, I kind of think bands like The Scorpions, Maiden, etc are "gateway" bands that gets one into more interesting/"complex" stuff. I know an awful lot of musicians that were influenced by Maiden but don't own anything other than Piece of Mind and barely listen to that.

The list of metal bands I actually listen to has really shrunk in past years but the ones I still like I love -- interestingly those were the ones who took me the longest to understand. It's been the same with "classical", really. I never "got" Bach at first but he's in my "barely human" category of artistic gifting now.

Wait what? Coldplay the "best band in rock"? It's more like "pop with whale sounds". I guess I'm an old fart too?

I can completely agree. There are artists and bands I respect but just can't get excited about either (I feel almost sacrilege about this in the guitar world). I don't know why I gravitate towards what I do, but I do. I can't help that I like minor add 9 chords and inverted major 7ths. Mayer is truly a fantastic and creative player but it won't "get me to 11" like you put it. Ditto most of the bands there.
I also struggle with this with other composers and film scores. Indiana Jones is a wonderful, fun score (for a host of reasons, obviously), but it's not something I'm interested in aesthetically. There are a number of master composers I struggle with in this regard too but I'm trusting that most require a good amount of familiarity if seeing their work live isn't possible.

No kidding! Especially because now those tickets would likely cost $400+ with just RHCP and PJ and the quality of enthusiasm would likely be much lower.

I think many would agree there. I never got into Alice in Chains as much as I wanted to actually, from what I did hear.

I've always wondered if I was supposed to "mature out of" liking metal but that doesn't seem to be the case in Europe with most people. It's probably not a coincidence that there are similarities between the bands that made the cut and the greats of prog and classical, at least in a more broad sense, especially considering the "metal" aesthetic isn't something they continually do. I have a hard time sitting through an "all metal" record without a sense of "movement" anymore (at least in terms of an LP). One positive thing about the last 25 years is that genre lines have significantly changed, and so has the subject matter. I suppose that's what draws me to the bands I do like -- viewing the "metal aesthetic" as a "tool in the toolbox" to express a particular range of ideas. In the end, interesting music is interesting music to me and I hope I keep exploring as I get older.

Oof, this is a line many bands don't catch and it's a dangerous one to cross without embracing the change. Don't listen to Metallica's "Lulu", if you haven't heard it (it's more than a little ironic that the album cover looks like it says "Lu Lol"). I think how far away the line is depends on what people want to push -- technicality or "aggression" has a short shelf life. Musical experimentation and structural arrangement/complexity can carry you on for quite a while, regardless of the aesthetic.

I think audience is sometimes the best giveaway. I went to an Opeth concert at the Roundhouse in London a few years ago. Literally 60-70-somethings, and a decent amount of them, sitting in the balcony bobbing their heads, with early 20-somethings at the front headbanging. Plenty of women in the audience with a huge age range too. Usually a good sign.

 

@Martin Hoffmann
Re: 6 strings. I think some bands have done innovative things with changing their approach to the guitar (i.e. 7 strings and even 9 strings with Animals As Leaders), but man, some people seem to think that plugging away on the low string ad infinitum is a replacement for melody and harmony. Pointless speed is the other end of the horseshoe. It's the metal equivalent of endless string ostinatos for me. Nothing wrong with this inherently; the use is the issue.

I mean what's heavier? Obscura by Gorguts, or Periphery?

While I'm not a huge Nevermore fan, I think Jeff Loomis was someone that innovated with the extended range (the intro mainly):

 

I don't have the answer at all. Perhaps it's like that ZEN quote "The flame that burns the brightest, burns out the fastest".

When you think of all the shit rock stars/ pop stars do to themselves too maybe it's like a elite pro athlete and it's just so taxing it will have a window of time. The Beetles lasted like what..... 8 years ? I know there are many exceptions, but I am also considering what I'll call "Finger on the pulse"

Guns N Roses for example are still touring, and I guess sound really good. They get great reviews.
The "Finger on the pulse" is totally gone. It's nostalgia. You know you see Dad's taking their kids so they can share or relive what they heard ...fuck ...almost 30 years ago. The person headbanging next to you is actually a real estate broker, and his buddy from corporate finance etc.


Take Trent Reznor for example.

He has made what ..... nearly a billion dollars as a major owner of Beats Headphones. and could go on and on (Oscar etc.)

What are you angry about man ? Why not release an album called "You know things are pretty cool, and I'm happy."
His show should be like a Jack Johnson or Paul Simon gig. Acoustic, observational, "what's the meaning of life" etc.


Good for Dr. Dre transforming. It would be just as lame to hear about him gang-bangin the streets today since, he is even more of a billionaire.
His whole life is different, and also I think (it was a topic I was interested in writing a paper on once) trauma is often (or can be a powerful) catalyst for artistic drive. Sadly those who can't move on from the trauma self destruct, or as the trauma is processed........ that's what blew people away, and the source of the need for an artistic outlet.

IMO the rational mind, needs time, and it sees clearest upon reflection. However in the "now" or moment of music (and life) it's our emotions and our senses that send our mind information to process. So this is the area of persuasion, or what I called earlier "finger on the pulse"

When "Smells like Teen Spirit" would come on over really loud speakers.......it just had an undeniable affect. I was a shredder, so Nirvana was not my bag... but it was undeniable.

Same with watching Michael Jackson in the 70's 80's (never bought any of his stuff, but it's so obvious this guy was from another world") or Led Zep, or Metallica or so many pop song.

I don't care for 80's pop, but when I heard that "You spin me right round" "Tainted Love" or ........the "Don't ......don't you want me " one....
I mean .....it just has a power.

So, I don't know if it's tied specifically to

I think I have even in the past year seen a poster for a Chemical Brothers concert as part of a "Future music festival"

They are kinda cool..... I like it ..........casually. But not "Future"

The flip side I guess why does some of Creedence Clearwater Revival, for example, just sound timeless....... I'm not a "fan" just when I hear
it: just a good tune. Some James Brown still feel "of today" for me, Stayin alive will always have a power, and We will rock you (not a queen fan either) and even Iron Man can make anyone hum like a zombie.


I don't know.....them is the mysterious stuff.

 

I think this is a really good point. You said it more clearly than I did.

The quote you posted is spot on. I think what I mean is that longevity seems to have a lot to do with the "what" as well as the "why". It also seems to depend heavily on whether their inspiration is vice-fueled (for lack of a better description, i.e. alcoholism, hard drugs, etc), or if they got into music because they genuinely love it and need it. Naturally, when fueled by trauma, hardship or vice, you either burn out, or get sober and get perspective.

Take GNR for example. Huge band, influential and unique. Total one-trick pony. People go to their shows to hear that "Welcome to the Jungle" sound. It's mostly older drunk guys reliving their teen/early 20s years who, like you said, drag their guitar-playing sons to go see them. I'm not sure if Slash is still drunk on stage all the time, but they've also had some seriously-not-good reviews over the years and I'm not sure if that's drug and alcohol related. In any case, they sort of did what they came to do.

Nick Drake: 3 highly influential, beautiful records. Says he doesn't have more to say. Dies in his 20s.

Metallica. Does anyone really love them for what they've done in the past 20 years? Again, hugely influential and initially innovative band, but they didn't have a great deal to say that influenced people after they all got sober. People love them for a fairly narrow range of output. This isn't a bad thing, it just is what it is -- they obviously have a legacy for it.
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That said, there seems to be another category of musician: "artist", for lack of a better word (I don't know how to formally distinguish them). They don't just have a single specific message, they're in the music for the long haul because they love the music for the music. They're often not as initially or broadly influential, and take a decade to get noticed, but are often extremely specifically influential. In this sense I think they have more in common with certain composers, at least in the spirit of how they approach music. Music is the end more than the means.

I think of someone like Scott Walker. Crooner and pop star in the early days, goes on to do some uber-dark avant-garde experimental music in his 60s and was a huge influence on some highly influential musicians (like Bowie). Or David Bowie -- he wrote "Space Odyssey" as well as "Blackstar" and "Lazarus". I'm sure some of his records divided his fans but he did what he wanted and did it well and diversely for a long time.

In the metal vein, I talk about this band influencing me a lot because they're what inspired me to pursue music as my lifelong craft, whatever that entails. Large range of styles and projects, has been a huge influence on almost everyone in the metal genre since the late 90s (and many in the prog genre) and has been constantly evolving over time with his band, to the chagrin of many fans. Zero drug influence and not driven by any particular angst, and draws more influence from Joni Mitchell, Camel and Ritchie Blackmore than death metal.
It's so interesting to go to newer shows and see new fans that are way older than the band, as well as newer young fans -- the vast majority are sober or casually having a beer, and most people are paying a lot of attention (and this is at a 25 year anniversary show). They don't fill out Madison Square Garden but they do fill out The Royal Albert Hall. While their decision to do what they want has been extremely divisive, this is much more in the vein of what I'm interested in in terms of an "artistic projection". They innovated a great deal in metal, and when they felt like they did everything they could in that aesthetic they moved on (despite those songs often containing "movements" and vastly varying dynamics), but their sound is still highly recognizable regardless of style. I think a band like this has a potential for longevity that far outreaches GNR in terms of their actual material, perhaps not being as culturally influential.
I mean these are two records that came basically one after the other (a few seconds is all you need really).:
Mellow (and rather dreary, I might add -- much of their stuff is much less melancholic):

Edit: Not everything is completely melancholic. Should have posted this as well:
Fusion-y and mellowish:

Not mellow, but despite the aesthetic there's way more in common with old prog records here than metal (same vocalist):

Another prog master is Steven Wilson, and ditto the influence on me. That guy has over 40 records under his belt with various projects and is gleaning a larger and larger audience each record he releases. Ridiculous amount of accolades. He tells amazing stories with his records, and they're usually other peoples' stories. Does pop and metal as well as he does prog, and it all sounds like him. Adam Holzman and Nick Beggs are in his mostly-permanent solo lineup, for goodness sake.

These musicians (not Bowie obviously) don't have "radio hits", but they seem to be categorically different in terms of their relevance.

Sorry about that...

Honestly, this fact scares me. I'm terrified that because of my relatively "late start" and subsequent inability to "get out" what I want to, the intense things I felt years ago don't have an outlet yet and I'm worried about them fading away due to the natural maturation process and a change in perspective over time. It's not that I want to write those kind of songs forever, but I don't want them to go to waste. It's a depression-inducing anxiety lately, quite honestly; I feel like I have music to "get out of me" but my ability to fully realize it isn't what I envision. I'm much more self-doubting probably at my age now than I potentially would have been as someone in their mid-20s who had been writing and playing all their life. Such is the life I suppose.

 

I missed the part about the old school Maiden style overtop. Let us know if that happens!

 

Haha hard to beat that oldschool sound. Here's some trve oldskool:

I think I'm kind of a metal poser though honestly. While I'm influenced by the sound and the style in some ways, I can't take the content seriously. A lot of what came out of black metal philosophically (church burnings, murders, etc) is straight up pathological and a lot of those bands took themselves way too seriously. I really like the sounds and atmospheres they created but I think the music speaks more effectively on its own.

Ihsahn's obviously got "trve" street-cred having founded Emperor, but I find his refined style and content more interesting. There's so much more going on in a song like this structurally. And I honestly find the topic of Nietzsche's descent into madness more interesting and more haunting than a lot of the old stuff:

This is the newer sound from a pretty old-school band but again, the evolution over time of the structure and content is just fascinating. He studied at a conservatory for a while and writes chamber music, and this record is about Tibetan monks. The atmosphere though.

 

I never really listened to him back in the days, but a while ago I stumbled over a video of him playing some riffs on an un-amplified electric guitar, while singing the melody that the other guitar would play, and he said that is how he used to compose. I thought that was quite interesting because it's stuff we've talked about here as well and he was actually pretty good at singing the melody.

 

Doug how do you feel about black metal?

for me, it's similiar to film music/romantic era music because of it's focus being purely on creating raw emotion.

\

as an American who grew up more or less into death metal - I essentially made a U-turn somewhere in my 20's where I appreciated the simplicity and emotive/imaginative effect of black metal much more than the technically/heaviness of death metal.

plus, another fun test is listening to it in 8 bit, incase the vocals/production are distracting... most Enthroned Darkness Triumphant sounds like any decent early rpg

edit, someone beat me too it. Trying not to be super #starbucksbasic by mentioning mayhem/burzum XD

ofcouse these days varg is some weird ass ethnonationalist so I don't really keep up with his stuff(not because I give a shit what his politics are - but it completely screws up my youtube feed and I end up watching white supremacists talk in Japanese despite not even being able to say the word "white" correctly lmao). but ofcourse any basicness I was avoiding was ruined by bringing dimmu into this, but hey - who's judging, I'll never be kvlt in personality so cares XD

 

or making an album on a keyboard in prison for putting a knife in his bandmates skull?