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E.T. Template Balancing

Discussion in 'Tips, Tricks & Talk' started by Dillon DeRosa, Aug 13, 2018.

  1. #1 Dillon DeRosa, Aug 13, 2018
    Hi Guys,

    So I'm balancing my template and fixing it up. All because I had a nightmare of a time recently working on a film score because my template was a mess. Which by the way the amazing Aaron Venture mixed/mastered my score for the film. If it wasn't for him the score would've sounded so bad! Thank you again Aaron, your a wizard! (I'll share the score soon, but the film isn't released yet)

    ---

    I'm mocking up short snippets of E.T. using Erick Kunzels recording because I want to really match a live orchestral sound so I can be more aware of my orchestrations working and not working. I've supplied 3 short demos. Please give me any and all feedback.

    These were done all with spitfire symphonic woodwinds, symphonic brass, and symphonic strings...
    the percussion is some hz perc bass/tamtam, and timpani/glock/triangle is cinesamples...
    hz piano, and cineharp for the harp.

    I have other libraries but I was trying to stick with one overall library like spitfire for now. I did run into some trouble with the trombones not being bright enough in the rhythmic parts of the Bicycle Chase. I think layering with Adventure Brass will fix it but I didn't want to try that just yet.

    ----

    There is no additional plugins (except for some added low end wav's Rbass to the bass drum).. everything is a dry slate because I wanted to get the best mix out of the libraries first using mic positions only. Mostly tree with some instruments having close and some not. I did do alot of additional panning for each of the instruments to help give it space and match more of what Eric Kunzel's recording is and instruments are located.

    Any tips/feedback please! If not what to fix with the mics, levels, panning, I could even use some suggestions on what to do next like reverb/delays, or eqs. Let me know if my performance sucks because it probably does. Aaron was very straight forward with me on my recent film score letting me know my performance was terrible... and I really thank him for being honest because I need to work on my performance :D

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/21ed0w7osf5zdjx/AADVrAT-3E8NOaJ1k46wkYGKa?dl=0

    E.T. Bicycle Chase Part 1 = the opening
    E.T. Bicycle Chase Part 2 = 01:22 into the piece
    E.T. The Departure = the opening
     
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  2. #2 Alexander Schiborr, Aug 14, 2018
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  3. #3 Dillon DeRosa, Aug 14, 2018
    Thanks Alexander, this is awesome. :D

    You somehow got the beginning winds/strings part to be slightly louder and fuller without losing much dynamic range. Did you use automation or compression?

    Did you add a delay or reverb? Somehow you got the brass to be more forward if my ears aren't lying to me lol.
     
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  4. #4 Alexander Schiborr, Aug 14, 2018
    Well, I did one little thing and added a flute / piccolo runs patch from Berlin in the beginning and double the strings because I felt in your version they were a bit too quite.. So in my opinon raise them there a little in your version. Then I did some eq, slight compression and added a bit hall to glue the section. Also I used a Vitalizer to expand a bit the stereofield plus harmonics. But thats it. No automation here. If you want to know more about the eq just let me know and I can look at the project file (I saved it)
     
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  5. #5 Dillon DeRosa, Aug 14, 2018
    Sweet. I'll def raise the high winds, and strings. If I can manage to stick to spitfire I'll try that, otherwise I'll add berlin winds for sure cause they're alot more upfront and drier than symphonic. For me personally, I really enjoy symphonic longs, but I don't like for the most part their short articulations. So I might go half and half with berlin lol.

    Yes! I would love to know what eq you used, and how hard your compressor was hitting. Also what is a Vitalizer? Is that like a stereo width?
     
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  6. #6 Alexander Schiborr, Aug 14, 2018

    Attached Files:

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  7. #7 Dillon DeRosa, Aug 14, 2018
    Thank you so much Alexander. I'm going to try my best to reproduce/adapt this second version with the help of your images.
     
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  8. #8 Alexander Schiborr, Aug 14, 2018
    Sure, just keep me updated. :D Good work mate.
     
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  9. #9 Dillon DeRosa, Aug 14, 2018
    Hey Alexander. I noticed your cutting a lot of low end. What was your thought process on this? I'm thinking I should do some subtractive EQ on all the instruments and get rid of the room rumble that builds up so I don't have to cut as much low as shown in your pictures. What do you think?
     
  10. #10 Alexander Schiborr, Aug 14, 2018
    Yes, when you compare the low impact frequencies mainly produced by tuba/lowbones and bassdrum, your version has much louder lowsubs frequency build even at 40 Hz. Maybe an idea would be just to lowcut that bassdrum and low tuba frequencies a bit at that spot. Because the impact at the kunzel version is for just for a moment and has good punch there. That was the reason why I lowered the frequencies there. Sure I couldnt alter the mix, but that is my idea here. Give the bassdrum a bit more definition and find the sweet spot of impact. Maybe at 60 Hz - 80 Hz or something.
     
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  11. #11 Paul T McGraw, Aug 14, 2018
    This is a very helpful thread. Thank you @Alexander Schiborr for sharing some of your expertise here. And @Dillon DeRosa you are making good progress, and thank you for taking the time to share your efforts.
     
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  12. #12 Dillon DeRosa, Aug 14, 2018
    Thank you so much Paul! I'm happy to share if it'll help others. No secrets here ;D
     
  13. #13 Dillon DeRosa, Aug 14, 2018
    Uploaded v-02 of the Bicycle chase. I added some albion 2 string high shorts ambient mics for the string to help give it more presence and overall glue but at a low volume (-15db in kontakt and stereo width is squished more center not as wide)--- as well as I added the ambient mics on the strings in symphonic strings ( i only had tree). And I believe it was my Rbass sub-harmonic generator on the bass drum adding too much low end. So I took it off. As well as I switched my cinesamples timpani to hz timpani hard sticks. I as well panned the triangle to the left because correct me if I'm wrong I believe the triangle sounds more left than right.

    Still no plugins yet, I want to try and best match what you did with plugins with instruments first and mic positions, and if all isn't possible then a few plugins to sweeten the pie. My template before had so many plugins and I got rid of all them and decided to start from the bottom. Basically plugins aren't gonna save my badly mixed sample libraries first. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

    Do you guys think v-02 is an improvement or did I go backwards? Please let me know :D
     
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  14. #14 Alexander Schiborr, Aug 16, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
    Hej Dillon,

    just quick heads up on your version 2. Imo you should put the bones on the right a bit more back, so that they feel behind the strings, actually they feel (I just had only a listen on my laptop speakers though) a bit closer than the strings which I know why that is. Because when you use short articulations with the same mics in sample libraries they often tend to sound more distant than the same mic settings of other articualtions because of the room layering I guess , and that the room will be eaten up by the legato transition. It is a strange thing, but a lot of libraries have that problem imo. So there are couple techniques how to achieve to put the bones a bit more back. One thing is just to eq the top end a little and to get rid of the very highs which is white noise. Or..use the a different subset of micings, try using ambient micings? Keep the trees because otherwise you sacrifice stereo center informations. Experiment with the movign the micings a bit. And last not least, you can try adding an algorithmic reverb for the bones. I notice they are inconsistencies in Spitfire brass with the micings on the bones which seem to sound much more upfront than the rest. Hope that helps a bit. I cant comment on the bassdrum thing because my laptop speakers really don´t capture much lowened. So more to that then next week.

    Another little tip: You can soften strings a bit ecspecially violins and violins by doing a sharp bell cut at 2.3 khZ. This area often has an upleasant sharp honky sound especially with sampled strings. Spitfire strings are very lush so maybe they dont need that much, but with berlin (because they are unprocessed dry) I often do that cut with minus 1.5 - 2 db. You can try it out. It helps also to let the topend shine more through. Also there is very often an unnatural build up of floor noise in the lower mids which you should watch out. Dont cut completely otherwise your strings will sound strange and tiny, but attenuate a little those room layer build up bullshit. Dont layer too much because it starts to sound too thick. LIsten to the original and try maybe to layer another fast run or agile legato chamber closer miced string patch, just to add a bit more of that definition. Try to think about that figure on the strings and the winds and how the blend sounds, there is a lot cream inside. So don´t overdo it with that thick fullstrings patches where you have violas + violins 1 + 2 doubled on a couple of triadic notes. Thats another problem, that sampled strings often just sound too thick and bold.
     
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  15. #15 Dillon DeRosa, Aug 16, 2018
    Thanks Alexander. I uploaded v-03 of Bicycle Chase.

    I wasn't noticing the bones in front of the strings, perhaps cause they're so loud I'm not that trained to hear it closer or farther I just get confused with loud and soft lol. Thank you so much for point thing out. I did a High shelf at 10k with a -4.8 db decrease so not to take away too much, but hopefully to help the spitfire trombones to blend back further. I'm using still just tree mics as you said not to take the trees out. And I'm wondering if you think this helped enough or I should go straight Ambient? Also yes, I'm not a fan with spitfire trombones. In Bicycle Chase part 2 example, I'm actually fixing the ending with berlin brass because spitfire does an okay job with the trumpets/horns but the trombones are so weak when it comes to that fast fanfare stuff. Also Spitfire really went short on the ranges with trombones/horns which is sad. Like there fanfare patches are really small ranges =( But yeah I'm trying on that example to blend berlin brass with spitfire atlesat for the fanfare fast parts since berlin brass seems to have a better sound for that. I'll upload that soon.

    Also for the bones, you were talking about the bones playing 8vb then the trumpet melody line correct? Or did you mean the low tuba/bones note that plays at the end of the phrase with the timpani/bass drum? Just asking cause I didn't mess with the tuba only the bones and wondering if the tuba is an issue as well with being to upfront?

    For the strings I took your advice. I already did some low low subtractive eq from the strings to remove room noise. So on top I did some small eq notches/bells around 150-250 range for low mids minus -1.5db. And on every string I did a -1.5db sharp 2.3khz as you suggested. Also let me know if what I did helped in the following:

    I added berlin strings tree mics at -12db (-6db lower then spitfire) spiccato exposed ontop of the spiccato strings already playing. I also removed albion strings so it doesn't get too thick like you were saying. I'm hoping the spiccato exposed helped a bit since its more flimsy and loose, hoping it helped add some cream like you were saying. I do think a legato would be better but I'm trying to find a solution that I can easily layer in conjuction with spitfire spiccato patch itself rather then have to load multiple legato patches since legato patches are monophonic and as you know we're playing divisi on all the strings. Trying to find a solution that I can plug in and just play it and it all sounds nice haha.

    Let me know if you think spiccato exposed helped or even maybe staccato exposed underneath spitfires's spiccato to help?


    -----

    Uploaded ET's Bicycle Chase PART 2 v-02 , that has the berlin brass at the end.
     
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  16. #16 Alexander Schiborr, Aug 16, 2018
    Imo much better and closer to the sound of the reference. Also give the triangle a little...and i say a little more..notice how it makes this ting ting in the original which you can make out? Apart from that I think version 3 is your best so far, but again: Just laptop speakers at the moment :D
     
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  17. #17 Aaron Venture, Aug 16, 2018
    Hey man,

    listening to your v3, and I think it sounds fine, with a few minor hitches. These are really quick fixes.

    Your right-side brass doesn't fill out the stereo field like it does in the reference recording. Add a ~15ms delay tap to your right-side brass and pan that tap all the way to the left, then reduce it in volume until you're satisfied. This was something I did a lot throughout the score we worked on together, since it featured a LOT of different libraries.

    Then there's the missing low-mids from your brass. Listen how much beefier it is in the recording. This comes down to mics and EQ in the recording / in your sample libraries and not much you can do without reaching for an EQ.

    Your brass ambience gets cut off at modwheel movement or for whatever reason. This is a limitation with samples recorded in an ambient space. Add some reverb to it and it will sound natural.

    Looking forward to hearing the rest of it!
     
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  18. #18 Dillon DeRosa, Aug 16, 2018
    Hey Buddy!

    Thanks for the feedback. I'm trying to drastically cut down on the different libraries and make things easier for you next time, or atleast thats the goal no promises lol. :D

    If v-03 is the best I can get with the sample libraries I'm ready to add a little eq/delay/reverb to the process now.

    I added a delay as you described and panned it hard left, with the delay send at -6db. This delay is like doing the haas effect is it not? I also did it to the horns but the opposite left side because I thought it would help as well to the horns. Here is a pic of what I did to the right brass.

    upload_2018-8-16_9-36-11.png

    I also added a setting I saw from Alan Meyerson which I liked, I believe it helped a little with the low-mids. I noticed it did add some warmth to the bottom. Should I go more drastic with these settings or try something else? And yes, I'm def a preset kind of guy or atleast start from presets and tweak further. Guilty as charged lol

    As for reverb, I added a digital 2.6sec tail and -15db of send to the brass only (no one else has reverb yet) in this updated version. I admit with reverb is where I get most confused. To me it always sounds like things are getting to muddy so I'm going to rely on your guys advice/judgement since I don't trust my own at the moment while I'm still learning and expierementing. :D

    Lastly for you Alexander, I raised the triangle by 1 db, and gave it a high shelf at 8.5k with 1db. I think it added just a little more ting as you described.

    V-04 is uploaded. Thanks again guys.
     

    Attached Files:

  19. #19 Aaron Venture, Aug 16, 2018
    Hey, it's really not about that! I'd rather you use libraries that can get you what you want/need and have the result sound better than have to do less mixing just for the end result to be a lifeless mess!

    Mixing is just the icing on the cake, meaning you have to do the cake properly first. Well performed and musical but poorly mixed is always better than a well-mixed lifeless piece. So again, use what works for you.

    Yeah, it's the Haas effect. That's the idea—to fill out the stereo image while maintaining position.

    For me the rule is this: If I think that maybe I'm dialing in too much, I'm dialing in too much. And it worked so far. This sounds fine, much more natural-sounding than v3.
     
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  20. #20 Dillon DeRosa, Aug 16, 2018
    Haha. I love the food analogy and wise words to follow. I'll keep practicing my cake baking skills. :D

    I wrote this on a sticky note and stuck it to my screen. This is great advice, thanks Aaron! :D
     
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