The Marvel Symphonic Universe.

I don't think its a coincidence that most of the films these days aren't very memorable either. Who can tell me the plot of the last couple of Marvel movies - never mind the music. If the film and it's characters isn't memorable, then the music has a real fight on its hands.

Look at the Aliens Movies - 1 & 2 and even 3 & 4) - they are way better than the new Prometheus ones. I'm a real fan of the franchise - but I could only tell the the name of one character from both of those movies. They are disposable and forgettable - largely I think because they have forgotten that they are supposed to be telling a coherent and memorable story - rather than creating some universe to build a franchise on - they are merely a stepping stone to the next movie.

Some of these guys need to spend some time at Pixar who mostly get this right.

(I'm preaching to the choir though - aren't I ?)

 

I know you were obviously asking Mike, but I can't help but think the obsession with temp music undermines any possible opportunity for long form structure, especially if the music being used is from a film with no long form score.

 

And what was their response?

 

"Impossible". Sounds like a crutch. It's sad when modern convention, bad as it may be, starts influencing the "default", and people don't care enough to fight it, even though it severely undermines their work.

 

Claude, I also love your video, as it speaks from the bottom of my heart. It is of course not fully explaining the whole crisis of modern film music (as I would call it), but that is ok as it is something many people including non-musicians can probably understand and my hope is that it will educate at least a few.
Some points I would like to add that I don't remember from your film:
Music has generally become less complex in our age and that lack of allowed complexity necessarily allows less choices which leads to more and more similar music. That is even true for a lot of contemporary neo-classical music (minimalism) and almost all pop music, even a lot of the so called independent stuff. Also the increasing short attention span of people seem to prevent any kind of long form development. Could you imagine a song like Bohemian Rapsody to become such a world wide phenomenon in today's charts? I can't looking at what is there ...
Moreover, production quality, clarity of the mix etc have become IMO more important to what music is perceived good by most people. Each and every time the fundamental building blocks that allow music to be a diverse language, like extended harmonies, get sacrificed for that clarity and transparency of sound. Of course, some Williams themes with there clashing brass dissonances are impossible to mix in the background. The mix needs to make more decisions - spoke elements are better left out.
Last but not least, the movie culture has declined in general IMO. I suppose there has never been an age of cinema with less boldness to try out new things. And if you get more or less always the same kind of movies, it is no wonder you will get the same music for them.
This problem today seems to me, that more and more film composers (even established ones) are not even able to write music as I would like to hear it. This is a consequence of which people get the opportunities to write scores.

 

Great discussion here!

Fritz brought up some excellent points re: the devaluing of music and gradual reduction in attention span of people, largely thanks to the advent of free (stolen) and streaming music, as well as the designed distracting nature of modern smartphones and the like (there's published research on this now). It's a terribly sad state for music in general. Couldn't agree more re: production. I've actually heard that argument from musicians -- "I love Katy Perry because of the great production". You know what else had great production? Abba, and they actually wrote interesting songs and melodies. So did Kate Bush, and Joni Mitchell, and Tears for Fears, etc. So did a wealth of other groups from bygone days, except their music wasn't churned out on a production line with limitations on chord choice and lyrical topic. The amount of production credits that go into a single song by Rhianna make this production obsession clear.

I also agree that movie culture has declined, but there's hope (spoilers if you haven't seen it -- go into this movie blind, it's really quite excellent):

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Now -- regarding structure in general, I'm curious to know what others think. While I think long-form is perfectly suited to films like the Lord of the Rings trilogy (amazing score that's a prime example of well-executed long-form, at least to my ears), Star Wars, Superman, Jaws, The Marvel Cinematic Universe (although they seem to avoid motifs or themes like the plague), etc, I'm having a bit of an internal crisis. Admittedly, I really do enjoy minimalist and sound-design oriented scores -- not the melodramatic Zimmitation scores that practically parody the genre unintentionally -- and wonder what kind of place there is for them in film. However, coming out of Mike's Comp 1 and some other random videos, I wonder if those sound design scores I like (whether for film or games) do include some degree of pattern orientation or recurring "theme", even if it's just chord or interval oriented.

In any case -- assuming long-form wasn't lacking in film, does anyone think minimalism (i.e. the Revenant's score) or a more sound-design orientation has a place in film//games, or is good minimalism/sound design connected to the whole in a similar-but-different way anyways?

Edit: Thinking about some of my favourite "sound-design" composers, they all tend to have a strong melodic grasp, even if the melodies are simple.

 

Good point; that thinking is essentially why I decided to buckle down and make an honest effort at learning traditional composition in order to deeply ingrain that as much as possible. I always noticed something "different" about the music of classically trained composers, regardless of what genre they were writing in (I use that term loosely -- classically trained through school or self-learning rather than "Creativity alone guides me"). I think even my favourite eclectic and esoteric scores/records tend to have some sort of uniting "theme", palette, etc. I haven't gone over them enough (again) to pick it up, but every one that springs to mind has some sort of uniting quality.

I'm not sure if you go over it in other classes (Structure maybe?) but I'd love to know your take on the practical application of long-form to different mediums (i.e. games, which aren't scored to cues but rather have a collection of musical pieces written and applied to certain situations or locations; or perhaps more experimental pieces). Can the "development" and the interconnectedness of a score be expressed through instrument choice, sonic palette, and more subtle elements if it's decidedly not motif-appropriate in a traditional sense, or the film/game isn't precisely linear (I'm thinking more "games" in this regard)? Or if the medium calls for more diegetic music by nature?

To each their own, really; some may find it boring, certainly. I do find some boring, but I find some pieces to very effectively set and maintain a vivid sonic atmosphere, and even though they don't necessarily develop in an obvious story-like sense, they create and move through an emotional atmosphere and create pictures in my head that I can perfectly imagine.
I'm starting to think that certain elements of these sorts of scores are more like a picture, or perhaps a descriptive poem, rather than traditional storywriting -- they vividly illustrate a particular state of being, or the feeling of a character in a particular place, rather than a description of events. Diegetic music comes to mind -- sometimes the line between soundscape and score is blurred. Still trying to wrap my head around it, so that may be a poor description.

I haven't quite figured out the balance yet, but I have a deep love for pieces that can create a vivid atmosphere and maintain it. I'm starting to realize (again) that almost every one of my favourite scores, even if they tend towards the minimal or "soundscape"-y, do develop over time (even if the pieces loop, via sound elements, changes in melody, etc) and have unifying ideas between pieces, whether harmonic, melodic, etc.

I think the Revenant's score is a fantastic example. The intro song establishes the string movement, if you're unfamiliar with it.

Main theme (first 2:30 or so):

The first 2:45 or so will give one a good idea here:

 

Edit: Just had my mind blown a little. Re-listened to a drone-y game score I thought had little to no interconnectivity, but turns out there's this ambient pad that subtly cycles in between a sus2 and minor 3rd as well as having a 9th appear occasionally, and it turns up in numerous pieces, as well as the concluding piece being a disguised and more elaborate version of the opening theme. Time for more score analysis!

 

The music in the film is really sparse, so listening to it back to back like this is probably not the intent. After 2:30 it's some sort of internet medley anyway -- it doesn't hold my attention being heard all the way through.

Being bored is subjective, I don't think you can really be wrong there.

This is another piece of his that is well loved; not sure how much horizontal development there is technically, but I do love the piece:

From what I recall of the Revenant score, it does develop over time (though the string movement is often used) and there are much different sounding pieces later on in the film. Certainly not a long-form score.
However, while I agree that this sort of development is necessary even in a sparse film, I'm not really sure if all scores are going to be thrilling when listened to end to end with no space, at least not by all audiences. The key with The Revenant's score is that music is essentially nonexistent in tense or violent scenes (I hesitate to call them "action" scenes) -- the filming style is very much a "sit there wallowing in your own anxiety" sort of feeling, with the camera not leading the audience with exaggerated motion. It's difficult to describe, but if you happen to see it, you'll know what I mean. In any case, the music tends to fill more empty spaces with an emotional atmosphere that encapsulates the unforgiving, harsh landscape and emotional trials Glass goes through.

I don't want to sound like I'm defending it, as I don't think it needs it; to each their own, of course. There are many well-loved concertos and symphonies that I find rather boring, and there's plenty of atmospheric music and jazz-fusion-fueled-prog-rock I love that many consider inaccessible or too busy.

I don't sit and listen to this in the daytime attentively the way I would a prog record or symphony; it's more a "nighttime with headphones in bed" kind of thing. It creates an atmospheric space I mentioned and slowly pulls you into a sonic world (at least for me anyway); again, I strongly feel like the music paints a continual picture as it goes on, rather than telling a multi-page story, inviting you to re-examine parts you've already looked at; towards the end I feel like I'm in a different world and almost forget I'm "listening to music" -- I suppose it could be described as largely a soundscape. Sounds awfully pretentious written out, but it's roughly how I can make sense of it.

But again, to each their own, don't feel obligated; my goal is simply to give an indication of why it gets listened to.

EDIT: On second thought, you might find this piece quite a bit more listenable; the Bass Communion one is quite abstract:

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What I'm rather engrossed by at the moment is going back through all the pieces of music I like in many genres and seeing if I can find counterexamples of the "horizontal development>vertical development", "recurring themes/musical ideas" and "interwoven score", as they're somewhat profound points that I hadn't considered enough previously. Don't think I've found a counterexample yet...

 

Sorry Mike, I know you're rather busy, and if you've answered this elsewhere feel free to ignore it.

In Comp 1 you expand on this idea that long form in music has largely been abandoned due to how filmmaking has changed. You mention here that expression shouldn't be limited in a "should" sense; however, in the video (Comp 1), you seem quite emphatic on the idea that a film score by definition should be long form (which I certainly agree with re: "long form" films, i.e. Star Wars, LOTR, etc), and that you don't like the vast majority of modern scores as they don't adopt true long form. How does one reconcile the two ideas? I can understand, of course, why and how an understanding of long form makes a non-long form score far more cohesive and memorable, but I'd love clarification to settle the cognitive dissonance I'm holding, as it sounds like true long form in a score is always the best answer (unless I'm severely misunderstanding).