Z clef

Ummm...... sorry if this sounds blunt, but totally wrong. Think about what you are saying. The strings create the most homogeneous blend of any family of the orchestra. Why would you need a new clef for the the one section that is actually the most forgiving? String players don't have to breath into their instruments, and they have the same timbre so they can blend really well.

Of course it is great when the orchestrator does not create extra work and agitation for the players.

In the Rimsky book he talks about 3 types of orchestration
1. Does not work
2. works, but requires extra effort on the players to balance
3. Naturally works.

An basic example would be trumpet and harp, can work...... but falls into #2. Flute and harp fall into #3

If the Z clef was crossing a line before when it was for the whole orchestra, man the wrath that will be unleashed if you spread mis-information that it is only for the strings.

And there it is. I'll post more about the brass and Z clef. I took a ton of notes and asked about 50 questions which he answered. I'll again say I don't advocate this technique, as it is a particular quirk of a very in-demand orchestrator during the 80's (his dad is Jack Smalley), and a very quirky guy.

So I am saying: Keep the critical faculty functions of your brain working when assessing the idea, but at least let's get the right information out there.

The Oboe question, Scott basically said he either would trade having say 2 oboes for another trumpet player. He strongly advised having 4 trumpets.
Basically he said that when you have all this large percussion and epic brass...... no one is going to fucking hear the dynamic curve of the oboe.

I'll post more. Just FYI

 

Back in the 1600, 1700's the obvious and common thing to do was tune to the pipe organ in the church. It's easier to tune the violin to the organ than other way around. This is why tunings varied from town to town. It was more of a "range". Plus this is also pre equal temperament too.

One thing this is agreed on is in "general" (meaning there are exceptions) is that the pitches were lower. Some Early music groups use A-422, others go as low as A-415.

And let's remember that this might mean ab-so-fucking-lutley nothing, outside of historical interpretation practices.

 

Seriously man ? Really .......... ? Man, this is what drives me crazy about these forums.
Why would you ask me such a condescending question ?

Sigh.......... let's do a little recap.

You might "believe" that, but if you read it the actual question was "Does the Z clef concept apply to woodwinds and brass as well?"

I already posted an example on how it works for the brass. I talked about the 4 trumpets as it was the "single exception" for the Z clef.

Yes, indeed that is your answer. In fact that is a very good answer. One could expand and mention the differences in reeds, or the "break" and so on.

But guess what. You have no idea what Scott's Smalley's answer is. That's the point. This is YOUR answer.

Now can we begin to see how silly this entire exchange is. I went to the seminar, spent 16 hours asking questions making notes. 2 years later I went again to review and refine my notes. In total I have spent 32 hours listening to Scott talk about orchestration and asking him questions and making notes on what he said.

Now......you are totally free to place any opinion on it, and I have gone out of my way to say in almost every post I am just posting what was said from Scott.
Like it, or hate it. I don't care. It's not my concept.

You stated above:

Then how the fuck would you know ? So the take away is I spent 4 full days in his seminar, and you read about it from someone else ..... so...... my bad !

And that's the line that pissed me right the fuck off. Ok, smart guy do this.

Read the line in my original post:

The Z clef theory came about for Smalley as a necessary reaction to the change from transposed scores to concert scores, now used on the scoring stages of Hollywood.

Good. Now go into Sibelius, or Finale. Enter in some notes. Now click on the Transposed Score button. Do you notice how nothing moves ?
(The only transposition -the bass- remains regardless of which you use.)

So please, Mr Condescending, tell me why he would need to invent a new clef for going from transposing scores to concert for only the strings ?
Nothing changes in this family.

This was written not to Sean, but help others ignores your answer that it is only for the strings. I already answered above the 4 trumpets are the 1 exception to the Z-clef (which you knew because you never took the course) and Scott talks at length why he requires 4 trumpets.

The last point would be, that the clef is meant to balance "all sections playing simultaneously" for big tutti hits that hollywood orchestration is famous for.
So your cute little woodwind example fails to grasp the basic context his approach.

But, you did read about it from someone else online....... so I must be wrong. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

Hey Alexander.

Thanks for your post. I certainly get the good natured-ness of what you are saying. I also know, that perhaps due to my years of living in NYC, or just being an asshole full-stop I can be brash and drop F-bombs pretty quickly. I have actually tried to be civil.

I WILL reply to Noam's question/statement tomorrow when I have a little more time to do so. To address what you wrote I will reply below. Please take anything I write in the most civil, chilled out way. Nothing is directed at you personally, especially not the 'good cop"

Again, I get the good hearted nature of what you are saying.
Here is the problem I have with this, and let me use an analogy.

Let's say we had to write a book report for.....oh...... Tale of Two Cities. One person read the book, the other did not.
If you notice the title of the thread it is on a specific technique from a specific seminar.

I don't think I am a "better" than anyone. I think all people are musical. I have had my ass handed to me so many times by people I'll never be as good as........ I not pulling a "I'm better than"

I am pulling a "I was actually there, read the book, asked questions". This is not a "personal interpretation" issue. It's like that Math example Mike posted about.

The personal interpretation is on wether this is useful or not.
No one NEEDS this clef thing, just like no one NEEDS EIS or any other niche course (lydian chromatic etc).
No one who uses these are "better". But let's at least present the information correctly.

Perhaps, and yes I can accept I am an asshole. That's not a big intellectual leap for me.
Originally a very simple question was asked. Does the Z clef apply to the woodwinds and brass. I said Yes. He answers the question and says no.

I believe Scott still offers this course. So people reading this wrong information about it are going to be turned off
reading information that is not accurate. Additionally let's have a little respect for Scott ideas - as weird as he is- who was an orchestrator and numerous classic films. From the original Batman to dozens more.

At this point another, legit, simple question could have asked. "Please explain why, or how to use the Z clef and woodwinds"

I said above the this line pissed me right off

If you disagree I invite you to write chords like C3 flute, E3 oboe, G3 clarinet at mf and test how loud the players can hiss on the scoring stage...

Yeah...... sure ...... that is a man-bitches passive aggressive way of saying "you don't know the most basic orchestration principles". I promise you if I said the same thing to some of my teachers, they would have beat me with a stick.

Lastly:
If he thinks this concept is applicable to woodwinds, show me how he would use it - with examples - and I'm totally open to considering his ideas.

Even after another composer, who also attended the seminar, backs up the notion of the Z clef for Brass and Woodwinds it's on me to convince you ?

Do you write music for free ? I am supposed to take the time now to show detailed answers. I should spend my time trying to explain something you don't understand for free, and not interested in learning ? Only looking for something else you can argue, and try to discredit my writing.

With examples of course.

 

Once your brain is turned on to the Z concept you can instantly see that JW & his orchestrator (Conrad Pope) are keeping the strings very close together in Z space. This creates a beautiful, homogenous blend.

To your credit you have about 50-60% of the idea behind the Z clef technique. You are on the right track for the missing piece with your last comment on composer going "outside" .......but really they are not going "outside" the z clef here.
I'll let you ponder why or why not.

both as a cellist and as a student of JW's scores. And I haven't seen a situation like that in his scores. Can you show me one?

Cough, Cough, Cough
Sure. In fact look no further than the score except you posted about wanting the cellos to stick out. Bar 19, why go up the higher A which knocks us out of the Z clef ? (between Bass and Vln 2) Bar 20 has the same. (not really much to be done here)

But this is what creates confusion. What is the justification Mr. Smalley would likely give for this ?

EDIT: Here is the link to the cue:

I had quick look at another score - Anakins Theme ----- Z clef ??? Blends great, sounds great.

Could not get past the opening as it began to look like a murder scene of all the spots outside the Z-clef.

If you will be so kind to explain the strings and the Z clef technique in this excerpt, I will return the favor and answer your woodwind (rhetorical) question in full detail.

 

Sage advice sir. I shall heed your message. You got it. I apologize to Redbanned community.

As a professional orchestrator: Yes I took great offense to the public comment I received.
I take my craft seriously, and do try and share whatever knowledge I can. Yes, I felt dis-heartened and felt like I had wasted my time.
(It takes a lot of my time to write out the details posts)

(This is my stuff --- I am not pointing fingers here... at all. I fully understand one is responsible for how one reacts.
That does not mean anything I said is actually true, just my internal response.)

I however can accept that A) This does not benefit it forum.
(I too don't really even give a shit about the zclef thing, and hardly ever think of it)

B) "Not interesting enough a hill to fight on." 100% correct
C) Additionally I think I overreacted as another similar occurrence had occurred in another thread previously and I compounded things
D) I can also hear my own advice that sometimes we all need to unplug.

I think I can say I am at D.

With that, please allow me to graciously take a hiatus from Redbanned. I do apologize for any "bad mojo" I have spread. That was never my intention.

I do wish everyone here - even if I've sparred with you- the very best both personally and musically.

Doug