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"Triple Tribble" - Scherzo Attempt

Discussion in 'Critique & Feedback' started by Tino Danielzik, Sep 24, 2018.

  1. #1 Tino Danielzik, Sep 24, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
    Hey everybody,

    currently I'm challenging myself by writing little pieces like the following one, Scherzo kind of music, since it is probably one of the most challenging kind of music one can write. Mike's "Berlin Woodwind" and "Adventure Strings" demos served as an inspiration. So here is my attempt, please notice the complete lack of competence.

    Link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/528akwn660yqj1y/Triple Tribble.wav?dl=0

    UPDATE: https://www.dropbox.com/s/n3wpos9vucsxls2/Triple Tribble02.wav?dl=0

  2. 0:06 I think you can already start introducing some counterpoint. Then just drop it for a second when you introduce the violins. Then

    0:28 I can SMELL the canon in there, but I can't seem to hear it :D
    0:42 onward, there's plenty of space in the low end to do some fun stuff contrapuntally again
    1:36 You could drop the dynamics just a bit on that last quarter right before the climax. Or make it a quarter note crescendo instead of a "sfz" note.
    1:37 I feel like the climax really drops the ball in terms of layers. Don't be afraid to pull your basses out of doing their thing to have a role in playing a counterline.

    The whole piece (the climax especially) could really benefit from rhythmic augmentation as well as all kinds of counterlines across the board.

    Nothing wrong with being inspired with these two pieces. It might help knowing where he's coming from, though. Plenty of fantastic scherzos in classical music, and if you already don't have favorites or just want to look beyond, this thread is a good start. I'd also just go through these pieces of Mike's a break them down. Transcribing them might take some time (I haven't transcribed these exact ones myself) but I just gave them both a listen and I think it would be a good idea to just mark down 4/5 staves for strings/woodwinds and don't even focus on the notes at first, focus on what roles each section is playing. Rhythm, melody, harmony, counterpoint, and how they get moved, dropped, introduced back and reassigned around all the time. Mark it down with bar numbers or sketch out the melody so you kind of know where you are, and analyze it like that. You can then do the same thing with your piece.

    Just looking at it like that helped me a lot to realize what stuff I've been missing, and I now do it right on the sheet when transcribing too. You kinda get drilled on these structures, so when you're attempting something similar and making a mental map of your piece like that, you'll automatically start filling in all the blanks since you've by now seen it a couple of times already.
  3. Hey !

    I'll try and reply in more detail later.

    I always like the "core" idea of your pieces. They are very nice. Aaron gave good advice already.

    This piece reminds me a little of Marco Beltrami. I'll just leave these two pieces for now, and will comment when I can on your piece.

    All the best !

    Also look to Dimitri (Also in C min - both examples)

  4. #4 Tino Danielzik, Sep 24, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
    Hey guys,

    thanks so much for listening and of course the advice, much appreciated! Counterpoint is really a hard thing for me. I tend to fuck it up every time I try to use more counterpoint, I play it safe instead and let the counterparts play the standard harmonies. I have the feeling I'm losing clarity in my counterpoint writing, so people lose the connection to the piece and think it sounds quite random. Also, I don't wanna overwrite a piece, I don't wanna make it too "artsy-fartsy" but still an enjoyable piece. A bit like John Williams back in the days. Today he seems to write more complex music and even though I like it a lot, I do enjoy his earlier works more, because I can connect to them easier, because the ideas are simpler. Should I expand my brain to more complex structures?, yeah maybe, but for now I wanna focus on some simpler executions, have a clean dramatic structure someone can follow without getting bored. So it's quite hard to find the right balance between these levels. But of course I can totally see the lack of variety in this piece, so I really take your advice to heart. It's just, again, the attempt to create an enjoyable piece that has enough going on to make it enjoyable and fun but without getting too complex and wild in it's execution so listeners start losing their interest and don't enjoy it as much anymore. I don't know if that makes any sense to you guys. :confused:

    @Doug Gibson Actually, "Knowing" has been a huge influence since its release. I really like that score, especially these two tracks. 7 years ago I wrote a piece inspired by it, but I guess it has the same problems like the one above.
    Here it is:

    George Streicher likes this.
  5. #5 Paul T McGraw, Sep 25, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
    @Tino Danielzik I enjoyed listening to both "Triple Tribble" and "Invasion". I hope you will keep doing what you are doing, and that is not easy. Easy to say, not always easy to just keep trying and learning and trying again. But the more you compose the better you will become, I think.

    I really liked what you said in your post:
    "I have the feeling I'm losing clarity in my counterpoint writing, so people lose the connection to the piece and think it sounds quite random. Also, I don't wanna overwrite a piece, I don't wanna make it too "artsy-fartsy" but still an enjoyable piece."​
    I also believe the typical person can only really process so much and then the mind shuts down and just refuses to cooperate. Exactly as you stated. Writing counterpoint "in the holes" or using ostinato figures are ways to get more stuff going on while keeping the listener engaged. I listen to classical music and better film music both actively and in the background all day, every day. (I am retired.) I can enjoy both the extremely complex and the extremely simple and everything in between if it is done well. But I don't think it is realistic to expect the same from an average listener.

    I love the sound in "Triple Tribble" what library are you using?

    For some reason, the entire discussion about simplicity vs complexity reminds me of the amazing audience reaction to the following.

    The power of musical contrast can be an awesome tool. After listening to the above notice how the emotional power of this next piece is magnified. Or at least it is for me. There is some excellent counterpoint "in the holes", but not continuously. It comes and goes. Also, I note a very artistic and sensitive use of repetition. Also a good example of variation by orchestration (I include the voices as another orchestration "color").

    Tino Danielzik likes this.
  6. Well...... I don't know. Let me ask you ..... What do you think is both working and were your piece needs improving ?

    Is there anything that you are trying to do, and don't feel like you know what to do yet.

    I would be happy to do what I can, and that might be more useful than me just going "Blah".......

    I like your pieces very much. !
    Tino Danielzik and Aaron Venture like this.
  7. #7 Tino Danielzik, Oct 8, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
    Hey guys,

    thanks for all the great feedback and comments, much appreciated!

    @Paul T McGraw thanks Paul for your encouragement! Of course I will keep doing what I do, I just hope I will find more time for writing in the future, currently it's a mess. :D The library I am using is Cinematic Studio Strings.

    @Doug Gibson thanks Doug! Well that's the problem. Most of the time I don't see (hear) where my pieces need improvement. I am working on it, take some breaks, listen to it over and over, then I post it on a forum and people tell me that it needs a lot of improvement. And I am ripping off my hair because I wasn't able to notice these flaws by myself. So, when you're asking me what I think needs to be improved, well, how the hell do I know?! :confused::D:mad::D

    Anyway, here is an updated version, feel free to tear it apart! :D

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/n3wpos9vucsxls2/Triple Tribble02.wav?dl=0

    Since I am a full time student with a job and a house with a big garden I have to take care of and my own private music studies, I am unfortunately not able to be very active in this forum, so I am sorry that I don't always reply immediately or listen to everyone's piece and/or give some helpful advice. I am also not a very communicative guy, but I love music. So please don't consider my actions as some kind of rude behavior, or maybe do, I am not very good in these things.
    Paul T McGraw likes this.
  8. I like it! The updated version shows definite improvements. It kept my rapt attention the entire piece. Great work. And I truly appreciate your humility.

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