String Quartet - what now?

I listened to the piece. I enjoy string quartets, I have a fondness for VSL instruments, and my interest lies more towards concert music than film and media music. So I started to play your piece with pleasant anticipation.

The sound quality is good, especially since you are using Sibelius rather than a DAW. Congratulations on achieving that.

I did not like the composition. You studiously avoided all CPE harmonicc usage, and all recognizable form. The result was that I really could not connect with this piece. I did go ahead and listen all the way to the end, as a courtesy.

 

Hi Chris

Welcome to the forum. It's a good place.

There are too many points for me to answer at this moment. Each kind of need a lengthy reply. What I would suggest as a next step is
to hire a single viola player and cello player. They can help you navigate the technical aspect and is also helps with your larger goal of finding people to
perform your music.

Just looking at the image, before hitting play: See those "red" notes. Well those truly are redbanned (Dad joke) as they are hard to play. Outside of the low range of the Cello, string players HATE 5ths as double stops. It's so hard to keep them in tune.

Your Cello part has technical things too. Mainly to do with impossible bow jumps.

I'll circle back when I have more time.

Welcome, and I look forward to seeing more of your posts in the future

 

Hey Chris,
Listened to your piece and read the above comments. It is an ambitious piece that could benefit from some editing and simplification.
Some of the notation is unreadable in its current state (beat groupings, beaming, inconsistent markings, inconsistent text placement, etc.). I'll give some specific examples:

• m.7 & m.8 - technique text below staff
• m.34 - remove dotted-quarter rest (quarter rest, eighth rest)
• m.35 - obscured beat 3 in Violin 1 (same figure at m.43)
• m.43 - Violin 2 obscured beat 3 syncopation
  
• m.70 - Viola obscured beat 3 (should read 8th, 8th tied to quarter)
• m.108 - Violin 1 (should read quarter rest, dotted-8th rest)
• m.112 - decell (ritard or a similarly familiar term for slow down)
• m. 151 - uncountable

This is by no means an exhaustive list, but some engraving/music spacing/text conventions need to be followed for professional performers to read. Their time is expensive and the clearer the written part (and your musical intention), the more seriously the group will perform and play your work. More on this at the end of my post.

A couple of final recommendations on editing info:

• Read "Behind the Bars: The Definitive Guide to Music Notation" by Elaine Gould. It is a pretty exhaustive reference of music engraving conventions (not much in the way of Jazz and Pop, but plenty of info about concert music and performing technique notation).
• Grab some scores of your musical influences and analyze the heck out of them. Also read through some cornerstone repertoire for string quartet to get into the capabilities of that ensemble.

----- ----- ----- ----- -----
On the simplification side, I think you should reconsider how complicated this is (rhythmically, articulations, double stops) for a chamber ensemble to perform. Like others have said, there's a stream of consciousness sound to some of the movements that's hard for the listener to follow. I hear motifs and themes, but not much "form" that gives some guideposts for listening. The harmonic language isn't tonal enough to ground many people with a sense of cadence or...this section ends, here's a new section, and here's the first section repeated (with or without variation). I like the rhythmic language (not written, but sounding) and I think that's as important in some genres of music as harmony/melody.

That's what it sounds like on our end.

The "technique" required I wouldn't describe as virtuosic, but it is quite challenging (some double stop intervals, some pizzicatos are too fast in the viola in one section if I remember correctly, the 7/8 section with changing metric emphasis). It also is not tonally simple. I'm not saying Haydn or Mozart simple, but your piece is pretty modern harmonically speaking.

----- ----- ----- ----- -----
As far as getting your music played by live musicians, I highly recommend you make the score and parts legible. They've invested years of practice into their craft, and want to see that you are as invested in your's. The ensemble and technical difficulties of the piece you linked require pretty advanced players to perform(at least current graduate student level technique), and preferably an already existent group (not 4 random string players). So, a "typical" wedding quartet would not suffice. I'd recommend reaching out to (university) schools of music in your area and emailing the string coordinator to get in touch with a quartet. You may have to negotiate a rate to pay them as well. I'd recommend giving them a week to work it up, then go record them and take notes.

Hope some of this is helpful and welcome to Redbanned.

 

That is a good practice (beaming for the metric emphasis). It's when you have 3+2+2 & 2+3+2 & 2+2+3 for instance all at the same time that it can potentially lose the ensemble (I don't remember exactly the number of different groupings in that passage, but you get the idea). One thing you cannot do is 8th downbeat followed by a half note. The half note should be split into something that shows the emphasis that is in the background (m.204 is an example). Asymmetric meters (especially ones where the underlying subdivision is not constant), are a problem notation-wise. If there's a recurring 3+2+2 throughout in 7/8, or alternating 3+2/2+3 in 5/8 time, then you're in somewhat familiar territory. Your musical voice is whatever you feel it needs to be, but having a lot of rhythmic ambiguity in sections like that (multiple subdivisions simultaneously sounding) is like a chef telling me that they used Himalayan Pink Salt, Kosher Salt, and regular ol' Sea Salt in the preparation of the dish. Maybe there's a textural difference, but salt is salt on the tongue. A very imperfect analogy, but I'm trying to say don't over complicate things for complication's sake.

Excellent resourses

I've been on both sides of this as a performer and composer. I'll give my contact info and set something up if I really want to collaborate as a performer. On the composer side, they may have the best intentions but aren't really that interested (too busy, my piece isn't their cup of tea, they're being polite...).

I'm one of those went-to-college-for-music-types. I've analyzed, written for, and performed in these types of ensembles. Then I graduated and got a job playing for the public. Academia (and those new music festivals) are where your piece can receive the mental attention this style needs. The wide world of pop music and lowest common denominator listening isn't looking to be mentally challenged to interpret music. They just want to consume it. So if you can get some of your pieces (of the style you shared) programmed/premiered at a new music festival associated with a university, then I would call it a win. Academia doesn't rely on subscription patrons.

On the impossible bowing topic, most composers write for instruments they don't play. Some passages/keys/techniques are more favorable than others, and some things just aren't idiomatic. Thinking about how the sound is produced and comparing what I've written to the mental catalog of works I've studied is how I try to frame my writing. Sometimes, I get it wrong, but it's probably a good place to start. If the cello strings are a perfect fifth, and the human (left) hand is only so big, and the speed at which they can change hand positions is limited by the tempo. then quick leaps over some large intervals just aren't likely to happen. VSL/Sibelius will play it just fine, but a live performer will hit a string in between, have an impossible bow change, etc. This can be overcome with some open strings, or smaller intermediate intervals to break up the large leaps. Look at Bach's Cello Suite No. 1 for how to write intervals using a lot of open strings, and traversing across 2 to 3 strings with intermediate intervals. Even better, throw up a score on one monitor and watch a YouTube clip of someone playing it on another. Here's another resource with some graphics on hand positions/strings. Maybe a "real" string player can comment on the site's info. (I'm a brass player and have some conflicts with the low register & alternate brass fingerings posted there, but the bulk of it is right for brass).

 

Sure. Forgive me, I have only had time to listen to brief passages of your piece. One spot that caught my eye for bowing was around 37-41.

Impossible might be too strong. However I would not send you a Christmas card if I were the Cellist. The F can only sound on the C string, and the G will of course be on the D String. This means they have to pick up the bow and skip the G string each time. Since you have staccato markings.... it's do-able... what you have written means they will have to break the sound. I might even suggest just notating a quarter note and eighth rest. I am not a fan of longer notes have a staccato. (ie. half note staccato in 4/4) It's not "wrong" but I feel the rests show clearer the musical intention.

The other point, is you are kinda "burning fuel" If you simply had the F and G right next to each other and say alternated F-G on the C string then the D string.....a walk in the park. This is were it's also about economy of effort vs reward.

I have shared on this forum before about spending a summer a long time ago at a school called Interlochen in Michigan. The composer (I was the guitarist for the new music ensemble) copied and pasted a flute part for the guitar part. Yes, it was all "in theory" playable.... but it felt like blue bananas.

It's hard to describe. Just remember the strings are curved and the bow has to react to this. Also for the cello their arms go across their body when bowing as opposed to the vertical bowing of violins and violas. This makes a big difference, and why a lot of ostinato figures are given to violas. They can use gravity and not tire out as quickly as the cellos.


Let me know if that all makes sense

Cheers !

 

Chris....... Let me say this more in the hope it is a contribution to your musical growth than endearing myself to you.

I mean the following in the kindest, nicest way possible:

Don't make me reach thru the internet and bitch slap you silly.

First..... write the music you love and die happy. Cut out all the other shit.

If you wish, at a later date I can write a post about "how to get your music performed". It's just too long for me to do this now.

We live in a "Meta" zeitgeist. A quartet will play angular modern stuff one week, and then Cannon in D at a wedding the following. No one gives a shit
in the concert world wether your music is tonal, or atonal or post-tonal. Have something to say. Don't worry about them so much.

Also, a great deal of string quartets are made up of professional orchestra players --- which means they are already like abused children.
You think big ego conductor is worried ?

Feel the burn ........ don't shy away from asking players

I am sure someone could. However it would never be worth very much. Let me explain;

I was trying to learn how to write for the solo harp. My next door neighbor happens to be one of the best harpist in the US.
Check out her playing below:

So I asked her: What composers should I study in order to learn about great solo harp writing.
She said: Britten. He collaborated with the harpist for the London Symphony so all the parts are very idiomatic and really detailed.

Cool. So fast forward two week. I am composer in residence for a orchestra in Australia called Orchestra Victoria. (in Melbourne)

I ask the harpist: What composers should I study in order to learn about great solo harp writing.

She said: I don't really know........but whatever you do .... do not look at the works of Britten. They are un-playable and awful He had this virtuouso
for the London Symphony and she could play anything.

The moral............. Put me behind a Cello and put Yo-yo Ma behind a Cello and two dramatically different results. The Cello, nor the bow, is any different.


You can find string quartet music arrange by difficulty. Just look through strings magazine, and also every publisher targets public schools so they all have catalogues with say Level 3 or 5 etc.


Another thing you could do...... is look at summer music festivals and camps. These are wonderful ways to make connections. I have no idea where Santa Clara is, but for a long time the St. Lawerance string quartet has a summer string quartet residency for professionals and amateurs alike. This is at Stanford. Just go....... or to a similar if you really want a string quartet. Think about it..... would you be more open to performing a work with someone who you spent a week with, got to know or someone who "cold calls". You will learn so much by just being a fly on the wall.

I've done the very thing I am suggesting and absolutely it makes a difference. Plus you will write better.

Lastly..... it's too much work to write highly difficult music that you don't like just to get it played. I've done it... a lot. I was doing the competition thing
as I felt I need those for my CV as academia has a "Up or out" slant. This piece I am attaching below was the piece that made me say....enough.

I learned so much writing it, however the whole rehearsal and litening back to it...... it just felt like someone else. I said to myself "I may as well
try and find a cure for cancer" if I am working this much and hating it.

Have confidence. There is an audience and performers for your music. Chill out, become jaded/cynical and people will naturally think you are a pro !

The worse piece of my life (and that's saying something !)

 

Chris, @Doug Gibson does it again with some sage advice.

As a former music teacher, there are several states that have music education committees "rate" the difficulty of music for performance by secondary school students. Without going into the specific guidelines of how they determine a piece's difficulty, I can recommend Florida and Texas's prescribed music lists as jumping off points. The highest rated difficulty works are basically collegiate repertoire and the lowest for beginners, so the numbers do not exactly match up with 1 grade = 1 year of school/private instruction, but you get to see it on a continuum.

Thumbs up.

Thanks for sharing your music and story. On the performer's side of that situation, I have played a fair amount of repertoire for solo artist competitions and had a couple of main impressions when preparing a new piece:

1. The composer collaborated with someone who knows how best to write for my instrument(s). "The technique is challenging, but appropriate with reasonable preparation."
   
2. The composer studied existing repertoire and is challenging my technique. "Damn, I need to practice."
   
3. The composer has never heard my instrument(s) and the selection of this piece is to punish the performer. "WTH were they thinking? This piece will be played a handful of times and never be a standard in our repertoire."