1. Didja accidentally blow through the whole, "We're using our real names" thing on registration? No problem, just send me (Mike) a Conversation message and I'll get you sorted, by which I mean hammered-into-obedient-line because I'm SO about having a lot of individuality-destroying, oppressive shit all over my forum.
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  2. Discussion areas for the individual classes are unlocked for all users. Let's see if this makes it any more useful. If not, we'll drop this or organize under a single banner to save space and lean things out.
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Masterclass Thread Banned at VI-C

Discussion in 'The RedBanned Bar & Grill' started by Mike Verta, May 13, 2018.

  1. That's such an idle threat.. they will advertise where the bulk of the customers are because they need to sell products,
    and they should welcome criticism as much as praise to begin with. If 50 people say you should do x, maybe it's worth listening.
    Certainly it shouldn't be up to the customers to 'defend their honor' and get all riled up about other people not liking something, it doesn't make any sense.
    If this were sports, at least you could support the winning team but there are no teams here, just people looking to sell stuff and those who buy it.

    Anyway, I don't really frequent Vi-C so I missed pretty much all the negativity that seems to be going on.
    I don't really want the place to go under, I don't like people getting attacked either, and despite my harsh words I don't actually despise the place;
    I just feel like very little of substance gets discussed and it's largely people wasting time.
  2. I'm genuinely not so sure about the last part, and that's really the crux of the problem. Frederick had an undisclosed conflict of interest and consequently the fundraising was done in bad faith. The fact that the financial details didn't make sense combined with his initial lack of transparency and defensiveness only exacerbated the matter. It's hard to walk back from all that.

    At this point I agree with your observations about Mike. I facepalmed when I saw Headshot simultaneously threaten Mike with legal action and then call him out for not responding. The only sane thing to do when you're facing the possibility of legal troubles is to stop talking to the other party except through a lawyer. The whole situation is just completely bizarre, and I'm personally not really sure how I would react either, so at this point I'm inclined toward a charitable position in interpreting Mike's actions.
  3. #23 Paul T McGraw, May 14, 2018
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
    I am very sorry to hear about all of this going on at VI-C. I guess I have my head in the sand, but I visit VI-C daily and had no idea any of this was happening.

    Of course, my primary interest these days is checking out new pieces in the "Members Compositions" section. My primary interest is classical music, so I do not even follow all of those threads. But not many members respond to posts featuring classical music. And there is almost never any discussion of actual composition or orchestration techniques. But sometimes there is, and I find I have learned a lot on that forum, admittedly by filtering out the gems from a lot of chaff.

    I would really like more discussion about the actual craft of composition and orchestration. Even here on Redbanned we need more focus on the craft. @Doug Gibson seems to really focus on the craft and he has been really generous with his time. He can be relied on to post in every member's composition thread. Thank you @Doug Gibson..
  4. Well it shouldn't be a surprise that a forum named VI control, when p i stands for virtual instrument, is more about virtual instruments and getting them to sound good

    I'm glad that it has a v i Focus, considering it's the only one angled it for that... the second glad this one has a composition Focus.

    So I will say like I've said before, well I think corruption could be a significant portion... I still think the main cause of all of VI control problems is simply uneven moderation in such a pathological manner, turns people into piranhas... And it's all about that blood in the water.

    The issue is that place is a giant Witch Hunt waiting to happen at all times, and dust tactics such as silencing your enemy seems morally acceptable, because they aren't conforming in some way. If that kind of culture had not been cultivated over a long period of time, the community would be redeemable... but at this point, I'm pretty sure it is hardwired - which is why Mike Green is making the decisions that he is. He simply isn't convinced what he is doing is morally wrong, which is why he seems to be Reckless about it knowing full well the entire Forum can see his actions.

    If it was just about money, he would feel shame and be a little more discrete about his manipulation. He deleted the master class thread because he thought The Lion's Share of the Forum would support that choice, and that the ones who don't will be too afraid to speak out for fear of banning.
    Raphael Badawi likes this.
  5. #25 Paul T McGraw, May 14, 2018
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
    Of course there is a place for a forum about the instruments themselves. Also a forum about mixing would be good. Perhaps another forum could be about working in the business of media music. Until now, VI-C was a source for all of those topics, and I have enjoyed being able to just skim the surface about these things.

    I like the fact that on Redbanned people have to use their real names. I may be mistaken, but I believe that using real names fosters a more civil climate. That is why I use my own real name on every forum I visit. I think that would solve most of the problems, but certainly not all. Our society in general has become less civil and often boorishly crass. There are some exceptions, like racial stereotypes and nationality slurs that have improved, but these are exceptions. Since forums are a reflection of the people who use them, I suppose these things are going to happen.

    I don't have the time or desire to find out every detail about what happened at VI-C, but I do know that VSL products, which I love, have been attacked with incredible vile acrimony and I have never seen anyone banned as a result. So something must have been different about this case.

    All that aside, I am worried about what kind of impact this will have on @Mike Verta and his ongoing efforts to help improve our knowledge of composition. Sorry Mike for talking about you in third person, I'm not sure what the correct form of address might be in this case.
  6. People know about my classes and tell others or post about them. My ads on VI weren't the lynch-pin by any stretch. In any case, I sent Mike as positive, honest, and supportive a PM as I could. And I did it in the midst of having had all my class info for years suddenly yanked without any chance to archive them or let anybody know; no chance to preserve years of feedback and information. But I took a step back, set my emotions aside, and considered what I really wanted to say. I truly believe you can't be an effective moderator without this skill. Reactionaries gonna react. Moderation needs thinkers, instead.
  7. #27 Paul T McGraw, May 14, 2018
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
    Being treated like that certainly has to hurt. As men we try to put a brave face on in all circumstances but I have been on the receiving end of hurtful actions plenty of times in my life and I know that inside it does cause pain. Mike, I hope you know that there are lots of people who appreciate you, know your work, know how much you have helped people, and are grateful for you and for your efforts. I include myself in that group. You have definitely helped me. And while I am singing your praises, I also know of no one with a better sense of aesthetic judgement.

    Is there anything that we can do to help in this situation? Should we send PM's asking for your commercial posts to be restored?

    Actually I do know of two things I (or any of us) can do that does not require anyone's consent or any coordination of effort. In the future when you announce a class I am going to mention it on VI-C. And I will look for opportunities to review your classes. I did that once before and I think it helped some folks realize they needed to get in on a good thing.
  8. I will say the fact that you chose the word attacked to describe criticism towards vsl instruments is probably a bad habit you picked up from some of the same pathology in that forum.

    even my favorite libraries deserve criticism, and plenty of it... There is a long way to go with virtual instruments. Instinctually using the word "attacked" shows how poorly criticism is handled, to the point of equating it with actual hostility.

    this is exactly why mikes criticism of ViC was taken as a personal attack on Mike Greene.

    and while you might have enjoyed when Vic was a convenience store with all related topics - you've experienced first hand that it's better when it has a focus. redbanned isn't for everyone, but it's better for certain topics because of the fact that it isn't for everyone.

    the cross over is there... but it's like ice cream

    chocolate with peanutbutter chunks
    or peanut butter with chocolate chunks.
  9. I stand by my comments. In my view the critique of VSL products by some on VI-C goes far beyond simple complaints about an individual product. What is far more interesting is the way you reacted to my statement. Hmmmm, but perhaps that sore spot is better left untouched.

    By the way, isn't VI-C still a convenience store with all related topics? Has something changed beyond some members being banned? And what is it that I have experienced firsthand? Am I being confused with someone else?
    Alexander Schiborr likes this.
  10. Bradley Boone and Paul T McGraw like this.
  11. My criticism of VI-C wasn't a personal attack; it was my honest, personal opinion, and one for which I can and do provide a reasoned, defensible argument. Further, the criticism is offered - as all my criticisms are - in the context of being caring, being supportive, and being willing to help however I can. I say that at the beginning of every Unleashed class, and I said it here and in my PM to Mike. If all of those qualities are ignored, or minimized; if there isn't even a discussion about the comment or request for clarification; if there is simply petulant reactionary-ism... all of that is on the recipient. We must not only take responsibility for what we say, we have to take responsibility for how we listen. We cannot assume responsibility for others' behaviours; only our own.
    Paul T McGraw likes this.
  12. Paul I have nothing against vsl, there have been so many times I've almost pulled the trigger on Dimension series stuff, and it should be worth noting that I have vpro5 6, Muir Pro with every single room pack

    The fact that people are still suggesting vsl despite some of the libraries be it's kind of a testament you how well they made in the first place... Likewise I considered buying synchron percussion though I wasn't impressed as much was synchron strings... That's just honest criticism

    I was actually pointing out your soft spot for feeling like it was an attack when people criticized it
    Paul T McGraw likes this.
  13. that's the issue

    we've decided being offended is always valid, and that criticism is the same as violence.

    just think, in the UK, you can be arrested for tweeting rap lyrics.

    It no longer matters in what context, the intent, or even what you said... It's entirely up to the subjective imagination of whoever decides they want to take offense, and in this case it's the man who gets to run the show... and nobody else is criticizing that person because they like having the power of being able to claim being offended as moral justification for the repulsive actions towards people they disagree with
  14. Gee, I thought you were holding out an olive branch to me . . . until I got to that last sentence. :) But that is no problem, think what you want to think.

    I don't have any problems with honest criticism or even simple personal preference. I don't know, and I don't want to know if you are one of the anti-VSL crusaders over at VI-C. Even if I were in charge at VI-C I would not censor or ban people based on criticism of a sample company or product even if it was inaccurate.

    Isn't it great that we have so many wonderful libraries available to us? I will readily admit to being a glutton for brass, since I played trombone almost all of my life. I own everything brass made by VSL, Berlin Brass, Chris Hein Orchestral Brass, Spitfire Brass, Cinebrass Core and Cinebrass Pro, and Adventure Brass and there could be more that I am forgetting at the moment. I also own the complete Spitfire Orchestra and more string libraries than I can remember. Having played with all of them, I think that they each have strengths and weaknesses. Some are easier for me to work with based on how I think and work. I'm sure that is true for everyone. Sadly, because of the expense, not everyone gets to try out each library for a long enough time to determine if they can work well with that library. But one thing they all have in common is that they are all samples of real musicians playing real instruments.

    Sorry, I got distracted. Bottom line everyone has many libraries to pick from and hopefully, every composer can find a library they like and can use effectively.
    Kyle Judkins likes this.
  15. I like you paul, I was just pointing out some of the unhealthy ways of thinking VIC has encouraged - and the fact that you used the term "attacked" showcases how off track the community has gotten when it comes to criticism. In your case - you felt like it was an attack, likely because often times people seem to criticize things not on merit - but on tribalism. If person "A" says something about a library, and person "B" and "C" respect that person - they are very unlikely to voice that... they are more likely to stay silent altogether, creating a mini-echo chamber. And if person "B" or "C" don't even own the product - they are likely to parrot the same criticisms coming from a position that doesn't exist. So in a way - you've vocalized that criticism is no longer in relation to the quality of the library, but rather disconnected and more or less who said they like/hate it.

    Likewise, Certain libraries are put upon a pedestal by influential people and then all of a sudden its like they are over their friends family for thanksgiving, and everyone is lying through their teeth about how good of a cook grandma is - and this library is the end all be all... then people buy it - it sucks, and then they have to smile through the tears and pretend to like it anyways, or someone will accuse them of simply not knowing what they are doing with it.

    So the idea of feeling "attacked" is symbolism - that many factors other than honesty have corrupted opinions, and you feel like it's not FAIR criticism. I certainly don't blame you for feeling that way, nor think less of you - only that it's sad that the problem has put you in a situation where you feel like the truth(as you see it) isn't even safe to say.

    This is exactly what I'm pointing out... your language "attacking" is not an over-sensitivity, its because people can't handle disagreement appropriately, and have turned sample library loyalty into a tribal/group identity. Intersectionality has in many ways bled through culturally, and its no surprise that WHO said something, is often valued more than what they actually said. You wouldn't feel the need to defend VSL if you didn't perceive injustice, stick up for your opinion, even if everyone else thinks you're wrong - listen to your own ears. If your ears are no good, then you're going to be a piss poor composer anyways(yeah I'm looking at you Beethoven)

    I think you'll like what I'm playing with... I just can't do much until I get my hands on berlin brass...

    but most definitely - you have to one day add sample modeling to the list!

    Its funny though, doesn't seem like anyone "thinks" of brass as much, or woodwinds... seems like people start with strings - and aren't picky about brass, and sometimes don't even use woodwinds...

    I've become more and more picky with brass - and also fell in love with low woodwinds. something just 4-5 years ago would have seemed absolutely crazy if you told me.
  16. I just posted a short comment in the Review section on vi-control on the Live Brass Class. Anyone else who has time to add to this thread please feel free to do so as I didn't have time to do it justice and give it the full review that the Live Brass Class deserves. Please help out if you felt it was valuable and would like to see more of these.
    Ben Hawks likes this.
  17. It was invaluable.

    As was the history of the thread - but I don't want to start a fire that's already burning, so I just quickly reviewed the Brass Class - which was simply amazing.
  18. Seems some of the praying have been heard because the topic is back in the Tier 2 section, but closed.
  19. Why? I don´t understand that. The thread was re-instated to Tier 2 but then closed? That doesn´t make any sense to me. I mean, why not leaving it open? Because otherwise it will sink down the history plus you can´t update it.. wasn´t that the idea to have a thread like that? It would be also better for users to have one thread..
    Gregory D. Moore likes this.
  20. There was nothing wrong in the thread. I don't see any relevant point in closing it. Makes no sense. Still, I'm happy I can archive the most fruitful posts of this thread, in case it gets deleted again.

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