1. Didja accidentally blow through the whole, "We're using our real names" thing on registration? No problem, just send me (Mike) a Conversation message and I'll get you sorted, by which I mean hammered-into-obedient-line because I'm SO about having a lot of individuality-destroying, oppressive shit all over my forum.
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  2. Happy 2018, Everybody! Thanks for making Redbanned such a cool, helpful, and inviting place. Here's to another great year!
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Masterclass Thread Banned at VI-C

Discussion in 'The RedBanned Bar & Grill' started by Mike Verta, May 13, 2018.

  1. Just a heads-up for people who still use the mega-thread on VI-C to get class info: Mike Greene has deleted it. He didn't like my posting here that VI-C is mostly a trash fire, and instead of asking me about it or trying to get some use out of the criticism, he just got butthurt and hit delete. Pulled my ads, too.

    If you ever plan on running a forum, here's a tip: If a veteran of your forum, somebody with threads multi-years long, which are entirely positive, supportive and helpful, and have hundreds of thousands of views and dozens of pages of drama-free discussion says something critical, you should listen.

    I took an hour and wrote him a PM; I'd like to try and help him, somehow. He's really getting worked up about the goings-on there, which just isn't good. Gave him some practical advice, which is my thing. If he doesn't like my PM, I mean, I dunno, maybe he'll ban me outright. No idea. But I did what I could do - made it clear that, like Unleashed, my criticism always comes from a loving and supportive place, even if it stings, and I'm always willing to help, not merely criticize. We'll see! In any case, if you haven't, follow classes here, instead.

    _Mike
     
  2. Really sad about that. When one tries to make some constructive criticism out of kindness, it may be misinterpreted somehow. I believe Mike Greene is really stressed these days because of all the drama, and that led him to misinterpret what you've been writing here. Just an hypothesis, hoping things will calm down soon.
     
  3. That was my first recommendation - that he get some perspective. It's just a forum, and the minority opinions of strangers can't matter that much.
     
  4. #4 Noam Levy, May 13, 2018
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
    So you PMed him and he yanked the thread? Or posted publicly? What actually happened? Doesn't look like you're banned on VIC.

    With respect, Mike, you are wrong that VI-C is "a trash fire." There are a lot of folks there that are newbs, hobbyists, gear-collectors, or suckups. And there is a sizable group of people there that write commercial music or assist commercial composers, and are sharing tips & advice from the trenches. I learned a lot from reading VI-C.
     
  5. Oh, that's unexpected. I hope he changes his mind and reinstates that thread. Thanks for the heads up.
     
  6. Speaking of masterclasses @Mike Verta , when will your site be back up so I can purchase my next one?
     
  7. @Noam Levy - Hitler doted on his dogs and was a decent painter. We judge people/forums by the weakest aspects of their character, generally. Not all of VI-C is a trash fire. There's just a trash fire burning perpetually and wafting over the whole thing. So it might as well be, unless you don't happen to notice those things. However, let's say it's not; let's say I'm wrong. That's an opinion. Silencing opinions you don't agree with is for liberals on college campuses. He pulled my threads and then PM'd me to tell me after the fact.

    @Zach Charlton they say Monday.
     
    Rohann van Rensburg likes this.
  8. Kinda funny, I was reading the thread in the Drama Zone and there's this post in which he states

    upload_2018-5-13_23-15-35.png
     
  9. Well if Vic has any track record, it's that it doesn't matter if you are helpful, it matters if you are safe...

    There are countless examples, myself included, but it is just too comfortable to just point and say that that person is the problem, not merely the ingredient that exposes the problem

    Watching Daniel's Hans Zimmer strings stream, right before he starts to speak his mind, he even admits that he knows it's going to hurt him severely to say what he actually thought about it...

    The fact that a well-known member of the community is afraid of expressing his honest opinion, only to be proven right by the shitstorm that followed, and no amount of explaining this to people will change their minds.
     
  10. Even more ridiculous is the fact that it was all an argument about a product. Not an idea or something like that. The guy received no shortage of personal attacks because his first impressions of a product weren't very good.

    And none of these personal attacks were sanctioned by the mods.
     
  11. I'd like to add, does anyone not see where this is going?

    You let your members gang up and pick on people, like wolves... eventually it gets really bad the moment you have the wrong opinion... and instead of stopping that behavior, just let it get worse and worse and worse and worse over the years, until all of a sudden Frederick was on the other side of the Wolves... and after watching everybody go down on that guy like a shit tsunami...

    And part of the kerosene on that fire was Banning certain well-loved members of the community

    And since he used cutting that thread as a way of attacking verta in the wallet, he might want to reflect on the fact that if he sinks this ship it might hurt realitone sales.

    I think green is a very powerful example of how quickly someone can become a dictator given the right tools
     
  12. It's not even that, it's that VI-C has an inherent conflict of interest. It is a money-making, product-placement-and-testimonial-harvesting site masquerading as a place for musicians to have helpful discussions with other musicians. Companies post a thread to get honest feedback from users (why else post in a discussion forum?), but you're only allowed to say positive things. That's arbitrary and impossible to sustain. And stupid; companies should welcome honest feedback and criticism, not suppress it. But if you don't really want to hear it in the first place, and it's "making your product look bad" so it gets clipped, then the community falls apart. Advertisers pay for ad space, not a "safe space," and should be told as much. This tells the community their opinions are welcome and valued and protected. This is opposite of what's happened. Add to that a moderator who's easily offended and upset by people not showing him the "proper respect," and you've got a... well, trash fire. He could totally fix it - just by choosing what the site is and insisting on it would be a good start.

    This is no small part of the reason why Redbanned 1) Has no ads and never will and 2) Insists on people's real, full names. It clarifies the rules, puts accountability front-and-center, encourages discussion, and exists for no other reason than musicians helping musicians. All you need then is an even-tempered moderator whose moderating follows defensible, sensible, and fair guidelines and who can judge personal situations dispassionately. Check.

    I hope he straightens things out, truly. Told him I'd help however I can, and meant it.
     
    Rohann van Rensburg likes this.
  13. Difficult to acknowledge in the same time:
    - VI-C has continuously proven useful for hobbyists like me, and even for non-hobbyists thanks to industry-established members
    - VI-C, as everything ad-dependant, is not independent: ads work as a content filter, you don't have to read all Noam Chomsky to grasp that; it's not about VI-C in particular, but about everything that relies on ads for funding

    Difficult because it seems contradictory. But it's not.

    As Kyle Judkins once said (phrased differently): you got useful chunks from VI-C, but know that all the useful chunks you got are somehow filtered.

    There is no contradiction. It's two different aspects of the same beast.
     
  14. I would surely hope a forum that big with that many members was turning out some useful content.

    Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I recall things beginning to go downhill when members began being persecuted for speaking negatively about products in the commercial section. The message from admin was explicitly clear: advertisers pay to be here, and when they open up a dialogue with you, all they actually want is praise. If they get a bunch of negative comments about their products, they'll stop paying to advertise here.

    People didn't appreciate this, nor being targeted and labeled as malcontents simply for giving honest opinions in a forum designed to be a forum for discussion. At the time, in response to the tone, I had posted in my own commercial thread that all negative comments would be welcome. But I was the only advertiser on the site to have explicitly done so. But then, I do Unleashed classes, which is all about value of criticism.

    In any case, as soon as admin tells members that other members are superior or beyond reproach - for whatever reason - it enforces this adversarial dynamic, and suddenly the environment becomes combative and people begin restricting themselves to isolated sections of the community (threads) to keep the experience productive. The house is now just a collection of disconnected rooms, and the community is no longer communal. It's what's happened. More and more tiers and divisions have had to be created - reviews, biased reviews, commercial sections, "tier 2" commercial sections, now a Drama Zone... more and more separation - it's the result of systemic divisiveness in the mission statement. These islands aren't being created for clarity of content's sake, but to help people navigate hostile waters more effectively.
     
    T.j. Prinssen likes this.
  15. #16 Raphael Badawi, May 14, 2018
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
    > Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I recall things beginning to go downhill when members began being persecuted for speaking negatively about products in the commercial section.

    Recent example: Daniel James did a honest feedback of HZ Strings, based on expectations he made clear from the beginning: you can agree or disagree with those expectations, and talk reasonably about it. Turned into a 90-pages arena with a lot of free assault.

    So yes, it gives the impression it creates tension, and you would have as a result this kind of "district" bondage. I didn't see the whole proliferation of sections as related to this matter, but it totally makes sense, because you're right: these islands are not clear. Took me a time to understand what the frack about tier 1 and tier 2 for example. Or also this distinction between biased (you can be harsh on a sample library you received from the developer, choose to expose yourself to the risk of not being called back) and unbiased review (you can be nice on a sample library you bought because you had a high esteem of the developer in the first place). All that isn't clear. Maybe there are other ways to explain this configuration and we're all wrong, bur for now, it's a credible hypothesis.

    What I don't understand is: why all this happens now? I am very grateful to the VI-C community, and still finds some golden nuggets here and there. I just don't understand why at some point the equilibrium between the commercial and the community aspect of VI-C soured into this mess.

    EDIT: > this kind of "district" bondage
    I meant bandage -_-"
     
  16. You do know why: at some point, Frederick or his wife's income needed boosting, and so that aspect of the site became the focus. Suddenly there were more fundraisers and ad things, etc., and it was precisely money stuff that took Frederick completely out, and ushered in an era of suspicion and distrust. And so long as there's this conflict-of-interest everywhere, I think it's impossible to remedy. But people can choose to just laser-focus on specific threads or topics and ignore the rest - nothing wrong with that. But in this case, it is at least partially necessary because the forum is divided and no longer a community.
     
    Rohann van Rensburg likes this.
  17. I was looking for the thread the other day and couldn't find it so I wondered what was up.
    Hard to disagree about vi-c, it has become a money maker rather than a community. There are some good stuff there but you'll have to dig to find it.
     
  18. > Frederick or his wife's income needed boosting,

    Didn't know that. But then, Mike Greene will not need the forum income as soon as he will have reimbursed its cost. So, we may hope this situation will not last. I hope so.
     
  19. I’d like to think that Mike Greene is a pretty decent guy, who has over reacted to what has been a pretty difficult couple of weeks for him. He’s had legal threats about a situation that was not of his making, and once you start having to consult attorneys things always escalate.

    I hope that he will stick his hand up and say - sorry, I got this wrong and then re-instate the thread and your advertising. I can only imagine that he must be feeling a little under siege right now.

    Otherwise, if it continues in this vein, I’m sorry to say I can see Northern Sounds - Part Deux happening, and I really hope that it doesn’t. I have gotten a great deal out of VI-C over the years, and I have a great deal of affection for the site. There’s some great people there.

    I remember how everyone turned on Frederick over the fundraising fiasco - it happened so quickly, and it wasn’t very nice at all. Nor do I feel a lot of the attacks were justified - he was just like the rest of us, a fallible human being, doing what he thought was right, and with the best of intentions. So he screwed up - we all have, and after all that he had given over the years, I thought that he’d maybe be cut a little slack.

    But no, there was blood in the water, and the feeding frenzy began. He got people demanding to know how much he spent on toilet paper, Why did he need a office, and accusing him of all sorts of financial shenanigans, demanding accounts, claiming the site was a non profit (when it wasn’t) and that he was breaking the law.

    So I hope that the claims of VI-C being toxic does not become a self fulfilling prophecy.

    Though if you look in the politics section, you’d think it’s already too late. If it were my forum, I’d close it. When you have members really slagging each other off like that, it’s only going to normalise that kind of behaviour elsewhere in the site. VI-C is a music forum - if you want politics there are plenty of other places for that. Criticism is both healthy and should be welcomed. Personal abuse isn’t.

    I hope Mike Greene reconsiders when he’s had a chance to think things through.
     
    Raphael Badawi and T.j. Prinssen like this.

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