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Headshot's Forum

Discussion in 'The RedBanned Bar & Grill' started by Samy Cheboub, Apr 18, 2018.

  1. #21 Alexander Schiborr, May 3, 2018
    Last edited: May 3, 2018
    Maybe Mike doesn´t care, maybe a lot of others here don´t care what a HZ does in his project and what other random people in the internet think of it? If HZ hires a gazillions of contract composers, who cares? And if he claims he does everything or not? Wtf cares? Dude..there are more important things in the world imo..to care about, aren´t there? That´s the only thing I will say in that regards, because I work by M. criticism chart which is pretty useful.
    Noam Levy likes this.
  2. I get all of that, what I don't understand is WHY it matters ?
    My understanding was the HZ name is pretty much an 'umbrella' for all the people working for him at RC; 'music by remote control' just doesn't look quite as sexy on the big screen.
    Kyle Judkins likes this.
  3. it SHOULDNT matter, was just a casual statement that HZ kneejerked and got defensive about - which rallied an entire forum into a witch hunt that got Samy banned from ViC.

    really it comes down to how people handled it. It was a reasonable claim to make and he was crucified for it - due to the mob rule/popularity contest.

    if you don't care, then don't care... but to throw a fit that other people care is childish.
  4. I don't know either why it's so important (it may be discussed), and found Samy's posts at VI-C (even here!) somewhat rude and condescending. Out of honesty, I stated this impression on his forum. But I can understand why you can feel offended at some point (the guy has been insulted by a dozen of strangers). It must hurt pretty badly. After all, he just said that he didn't believe HZ orchestrated a big band thing back in 1992 all by himself, every notes of it: it was not accusation, just disbelief which can be backed up by what is commonly practiced in Hollywood. He asked for the original mock-up, so he was open to be proven wrong. And also, you can express yourself badly with a whole different intent in mind :)

    Either way, if there are interesting topics like we have here, if we learn from each other (even from a philosophy teacher standpoint, I learn a lot from my students), it's a win-win (just like here). So I subscribed and hope this whole drama-thing will soon be settled. Samy is a pretty gifted orchestrator, and I go everywhere I can learn something :)
    Kyle Judkins likes this.
  5. that's my take away, I'm just happy the guy is on the internet again.

    I can't tell you how much getting banned from VIC effected me, despite having a much clearer view looking back - it definately hits harder than you'd think it does. So on that front(and similar experience) I sympathize with him.

    I think he just wants to clear his reputation. I got to make peace with many of the people who wronged me on ViC thay I actually respect through other forums - but if I had no way to contact them I could see it building up to that point.

    some of the people who went after him kind of suprised me, but I just assume they were just off-days, as it mostly seems out of character for them. I don't think less of them, just wish they wouldn't have been a part of the flogging.

    and you're right... all of them can be learned from regardless - and every single one of them have went out of their way to help the community, so I know their intentions are good.
  6. No I get why Samy feels he was wronged (or at least as much as I could gather in 5 minutes of research, which is about all the time I wanted to spend on it, but I think I got the gist of it).
    I still don't understand WHY it matters whether or not it was actually Hans. I promise I'm not being facetious, just not understanding.

    Whether or not he's right about the issue (I have my own, equally irrelevant, opinion), what happened to him over there was in no way correct (once again from my little research).
    Personally I'd happily get banned from Vi-C, I wouldn't piss on that place if it was on fire, but I don't have a name or career to protect, so I get that.
    I wish you both good fortune.
    Kyle Judkins likes this.
  7. the HZ part was only important because he's kind of the sacred cow if that place.

    his star factor is likely what drove a lot of people to do things they normally wouldnt/say things they wouldn't normally say - and ofcourse HZ is immune to moderation there

    I mean in his last spout he had no reservations calling some guy a twat. He's simply the hill that Samy died on, and a shining example of the popularity contest based opinions and completely uneven moderation simply based on popular opinion.

    My experience was that you could be as vile as you wanted towards someone as long as you were on the "right" side. Samy was the tail end of extremely nasty comments but was banned for really tame criticisms, HZ just happens to me the best example because a.) that's why it happened and b.) He's stark contrast, as he says whatever he wants because he is the "right side" just because he's famous and people are afraid he can hurt their career from his position if they speak out against him
  8. and yeah, not to bash on ViC, but all my needs are met with these 3 forums.

    each has a particular strength/focus.

    for now Samy's is just where I can be the MOST honest, but I think if it takes off - it'll be a good orchestral VI counterpart to the composition focused rebanned.

    since it seems like Sam's forte is mockups/mixing/mastering - and Mike is more of a toss it together and let the music do the talking kind of guy.

    and since the soundboard is a broader place - it definately is more focused on software/hardware - but not strict e-orchestral focused.
  9. #29 Alexander Schiborr, May 3, 2018
    Last edited: May 3, 2018
    I didn´t throw any fit to you, Kyle, or the people who wants to discuss that, just to clarify that. If you or others feel that you need to have that talk..well there is your new forum where you can have that all the day long. I stay here because I like it that we have a talk about how to get better with composing and orchestrating, which is imo so much more productive and what matters the most and not what Composer xy did or probably didn´t do in his projects back then. It is such a waste of time otherwise. It is waste of energy and time.

    And even if HZ can´t do a shit with big band writing. It is so irrelevant imo. If he sais that he did wrote it or whatever did on that track. Well then he did it or maybe not?! Do I need a proof for that BY HIM? And that is what I don´t get: Why does somebody has to proof those things? Thats a general question. Why HZ (or any other person) has to proof to another guy in the forum that he did that? For me it is very similiar when somebody critisizes my music and I start to ask: Well can you present your own work so that I will probably consider your opinion as valuable? Otherwise when you can´t I will not take you seriously? Maybe some people found that thing a bit strange to put that mild. And sure HZ has a special place on ViC so he is treated differently than other people. I had battles back then with him on many different subjects and I was battling against the majority in the forum and I received "calling names" against me at some point. Well, I wasn´t banned because I crititized him, and I did that a lot. So why I wasn´t banned? Hmm, isn´t that strange too?
  10. Yes sure, but that's all AFTER.
    I'm still not understanding what makes it important why - or not - it was Hans who wrote that piece.

    Let me phrase it another way (with an horrible analogy):
    I go to McDonalds and order a burger. The burger has 'McDonalds' on the wrapper, but nobody is saying ''I don't think you flipped that burger I just ate'' to mr. McDonalds himself.
    Maybe the recipe was his (maybe not even that), maybe he's just a brand.
    If the people who were responsible for my burger (the employee, the owner of the franchise, guy who cleans the bathrooms, etc.) are compensated, what does it matter to you, me, or anyone?
    Does it say on Lady Gaga's new record who's responsible for those beats? What about the Lyrics? (asking because I don't know but my guess would be no. You can bet those people will be paid though as long as that thing keeps selling).

    If Hans did not actually write that thing himself (once again, very well may not have. It's besides the point) I'm sure the people who did were compensated, and if they weren't that's their beef, not yours.. (or is it?).
    So, WHAT caused Samy to call him out, that's all I'd like to know..
  11. To be quite frank, because HZ made it a big deal.

    The origin of all of that happening literally started with someone ELSE making a "why do we all have to be zimmer clones" thread... and then people discussing the broad range of zimmer sounds - including some interested in specifically how he manages to have a very wide degree of styles in which he can convincingly mimic. A few people alluded to the fact that he simply has tons of people he works with that know how to write those styles, sometimes to the point that it's borderline plagerism for him to accept praise for the pieces. HZ could have simply ignored the comment, but he felt compelled to defend himself... I'm not saying the man isn't allowed to defend himself, but his involvement significantly made the discussion stick - and caused people to go out of their way to agree with zimmer, and those brave enough to stick to the obvious were casualties - and zimmer knew full well that would happen. It's like a game of chicken, and he knows damn well his car wont cave from collision, so he doesn't have to play chicken to win - he can just hold his foot on the gas pedal and then flick the windshield wipers to get the pesky detractor splats off.

    Past that, more discussion than that is occurring on the forum - so it's kind of unfair to paint the entire affair as simply a ViC gossip forum, but if you choose to not to participate in it, that's fair. Just no reason to go out of your way to discourage others by deliberately mischaracterizing the entire situation.

    as far as the specific ordeal that caused samy to make the comment: he's been telling his side of the story through videos.


    complete with satire, ofcourse.
  12. So if someone never releases a Big Band or a Jazz track, does it mean that they don't know how to do it? How do you know he didn't study it in his free time and he simply didn't release any of his works publicly until that project? You don't.

    Orchestrators and arrangers and additional composers are credited. But you'll never know how much did they actually do. An orchestrator could have just checked the music and corrected the mistakes or he could've orchestrated the whole thing from a piano sketch. Additional composers may have done 40% of the score, or they may have just done drums on a 30 second scene. You don't know.

    If you have the musical knowledge John Williams is demonstrating, you don't need to fumble through anything. Electronic music is inherently simple - much simpler than pop. The production factor is another thing, but with all the presets available today, you can get great results pretty quickly. Electronic music is the simplest of all the forms of music that are popular today. You only need a melody and a bassline. Musically, you need no B side, no (horizontal) development, 90% of the time no vocals, just a harmonized 8 bar melody. Or not even a melody, just a 1-bar or a 2-bar figure. The majority of tracks are just that. There are 320+ releases (some containing multiple tracks) on Beatport released just today, May 3rd. That's way more music than you can actually consume in the day. And that's just the stuff that's actually seeing the light of day (getting released).

    Why are you then making statements if you don't wish to back them up? Come on, dude. I still think it's shitty to throw numbers around like that. If you have any proof, please do share.

    If it's your word against the word of someone who has waaay more credentials than you, is it crazy to expect their side getting more support?

    Overall, you are free to have an opinion. You're also free to voice your opinion. Other people are free to call you out on your opinion. You're also free to do the same. If you care and want to defend your opinion, you'd best present some evidence. Free speech. People are dicks, nothing to cry about. Pick your battles. You want to have an opinion and not be attacked for it? Keep it to yourself. Sharing it online is begging for a discussion, especially if you didn't bring any proof with you - It's called "talking shit". Nobody likes people who talk shit. Talking shit and condescension are a sign of an insecure person trying to feel better about themselves.
  13. the cult is so real, that me even explaining the events has caused you to get defensive. I'm merely explaining the thought process behind that conclusion - why it's reasonable given zimmer's history, and why people overreacted to the claim.

    Pick your battles is right, considering, while I might agree with Sam's assessment - I'm not the one making the claim, nor care to pursue the claim(because I simply know the reality of how most of zimmer's music has been made, so none of that is a shock to me). If you're under the illusion that zimmer's repitoire is entirely zimmer then I'm sorry to disappoint you - and hope you understand that it's not really uncommon, and doesn't detract from the skills and talents zimmer actually has. But I think the willingness to blind yourself from how he operates is simply a matter of "never meet your heroes" at play. If you do understand that additional composers is commonplace for him - why is this one obvious example a big deal? Especially considering there are many examples that are openly credited to his additional composers - why is this a big deal to you...

    its like a guy who eats a pizza almost every day... and then someone says "didn't you eat pizza last Thursday" and they go "no I didn't" "pretty sure I saw you eating pizza Thursday" "every other day, but not Thursday, are you calling me a liar?!?!" mob shouts "YEAH, WHAT GIVES YOU THAT RIGHT, WHERE IS THE PROOF THAT THE PIZZAEATER ATE PIZZA ON THAT DAY WHEN HE CLEARLY SAYS HE DIDNT"

    I will not for the life of me figure out why some of you are so insistent on beating a dead horse, repeatedly pointing towards that forum if you want to continue this discussion, instead some of you are bound determined to drag an argument that's years old onto this forum - and me into it for just explaining the backstory to people who don't remember the event/summary of what the original argument was about.

    take a few steps back and breath, theres just no reason to get hostile and accuse me of talking shit. you want a mile long thesis because I explained samy's perspective? Considering all I said was "REMARKABLY SUSPICIOUS" and explained my reasoning, you came out like I said he was satan incarnate and demanded verifiable data for my open ended skepticism. You can call me any name you'd like, accuse me of talking shit - I don't care. But if your panties are in a twist, it's all in your head, I'm 100% not responsible for how you decide to interpret what I wrote. Anyone with decent reading comprehension can see that I made mild claims, that is was simply suspicious, and if you feel the need to white knight for zimmer - then it's not worth it for me to attempt to pacify you, as you'll see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear. Especially when you quote me explaining other people's opinions - with very few nudges towards my own stance, and then use their claims as if I made them and tried to respond to zimmer.

    Odd, considering I've never in my entire life had an exchange with zimmer... nor would I go out of my way to care if he orchestrated a big band piece on his own. So for people to compare our credentials is a.) kind of odd, considering I was never part of that dispute - didn't even have a ViC control account during it's lifespan. and b.) who cares about credentials...

    the appeal to authority argument is so unbelievably stupid, that it absolutely boggles me that someone with any shred of intelligence would somehow link truth to anything other than objective truth... if HZ says the ocean is red and everyone believes him, guess what - the ocean is still not red. If HZ lied about composing that piece, he would also be the expert?

    I mean - would you ask a murderer if they did it? quite technically, they would be the only person that was there - 100% more experience than anyone else when it comes to that persons death, so are they the experts??? If a doctor tells you you need to lower your blood sugar, who do you believe? the 140 lb doctor who's in good health, or the 450 lbs lady with diabetes? She's the expert on the subject right???

    To assume that only successful composers are a lot to be their own judges is absolutely silly... that's largely what leads to the aidsfest that ViC is ran by... which is court of popular opinion, not good opinions. Infact an argument could be made that in every major advancement - it's what they did completely different than everybody that made them successful... HZ embraced computer music like no other of his time, and it launched his career... HZ would have floundered instantly had he tried to compete on the field of traditional orchestration against guys like Williams... Just like Williams would likely flop if he were to try to make sample + synth based sound tracks. So it sounds like your value system is pretty useless in the grand scheme of things. Sam made some of the best sounding sample modeling demos ever, HZ has way more credentials than Sam - but probably couldn't treat his way out of a sample modeling paper bag. He's probably also not the master of jujitsu, flute, boxcar racing, or drone based warfare... HZ just has a very specific set of skills, has figured out how to make money off of them - and nobody has bothered to attack him on his actual strengths, where his opinion might actually matter.
  14. #34 T.j. Prinssen, May 3, 2018
    Last edited: May 3, 2018
    ok, final post on this

    Alright, that's the answer to WHERE. Still waiting for WHY..
    Anything that happened afterwards, as ugly as it is, is not what were talking about right here.

    When Daniel James was recently caught in the HZ-Strings debacle (I followed it as much as I could stomach, i.e. not much),
    he made those comments about a product he PAID for, and was expecting to work.
    You see? He had a reason (why) and something to gain:
    I pay money so I expect shit to work. It doesn't (= why), so I'm calling you out.
    It' doesn't (didn't?) even have to be so negative. He just wanted them to fix the things that were broken so he can (happily) use it as intended (= Gain)

    I on the other hand did not buy HZ strings, I have 0 reason to call them out on anything.

    Another one:
    I was recently made aware of video's where people pretend to be super-shredder guitar players.
    Instead they were releasing sped-up videos where the guitar parts were synthesized (using something like guitar pro midi through an Amp-simulator).
    WHY do i care ? (reason)
    Because young players may not realize it's fake and think that's somehow a standard they must reach technically, when it's in fact impossible.
    They may give up on playing guitar, or they might actually physically hurt themselves.

    What is the reason Samy initially called out Hans? I still don't get it.
    A couple of posts back you said something like 'he died on that hill'.
    I still see no reason why he needed to die there ? Was the hill family property? Was he defending his country there?
    What does he GAIN from the call-out, even if he is right?

    You get where I'm coming from? I'm not sure how many ways I can explain it.

    This whole thing could have been avoided IMO.
  15. I mean I'm done on the discussion here. Context matters. I linked you to his forum post where he goes over the WHY it was said in the first place. If you ask why and there is an already the most familiar person involved(Sam) making a detailed video on the context of how it was brought up, and why he brought it up - it looks like you're not actually looking for the reason why. That's why I won't bother explaining further why - because you're 1 click away from the actual source telling you why, which you've ignored and are asking me again as if I cant hear you.

    "WHY do i care ? (reason)
    Because young players may not realize it's fake and think that's somehow a standard they must reach technically, when it's in fact impossible." Again, samy's actual motivation is pretty clear in his video - but the primary reasons I personally *would* care, is this reason + not giving talented artists the credit they deserve. But the second part is arguable, because they *could* technically commit career suicide and lose jobs, face lawsuits, ect - by speaking out against him.
  16. That last post may have come off slightly more rude than I meant to, my apologies Kyle.

    only because you were dancing circles around my actual question.

    I have 0 interest in watching a 20 minute video for the answer to a simple question, let alone a series of them.
    Honestly, it shouldn't require much more than a sentence or two.

    Once again, the way Samy was treated over there is plain wrong and I understand why he's bitter (even though I still don't understand his motivations, but whatever).
    What's more bothersome than the name-calling and attacks is the fact he was banned, thus not being able to retort / defend himself.
    I'm all for free speech, I'd rather you call me an asshole than be a situation where you're not allowed express your opinion.
    If I'm offended by that, or anything you say it's only because I CHOSE to be.

    Shame Samy and the people involved couldn't work it out.
    He seems like a smart, talented cat and certainly the opinions on modern film music seem to be much in line with the way people here feel / think.

    I'll leave it here.. like I said; best to both of you.
  17. Haha, dubstep might be a bad example then. A Gorguts-esque deathmetal song? Sure, not a genre you can fumble through, but then again I'm sure John would be great at structuring it.
  18. tea bagging the dead was ghost written!

    or wait, that's gutrot

    layers upon layers.

    TJ I don't mind, I'm just saying that are not comfortable speaking for another person's motives, when they have already spoken for themselves.

    no worries
  19. I don't see anyone being defensive except you by refusing to explain your claims further

    Again, you made a bold claim, I asked you to back it up. Now you make mile long posts about having no intentions to back it up and I keep calling you out on it. I will keep asking you until you either answer or retract the statement.

    Is calling you out on not providing proof "being hostile"? Is asking for proof offensive to you and make you feel attacked? Where's the spirit of debate? Should we just take your word that Hans Zimmer only did 10% on that piece? On what grounds? There's been a couple of replies back and forth between us and you still haven't provided any proof to your statement. Until you do, it falls under the category "baseless claims and rumor" or, you know, "talking shit".

    You neither presented it as his perspective nor you explained it.

    Oh okay, that quote up there is now a mild suspicious claim :D

    I'm feeling to white knight against talking nonsense against other people without providing any proof. I don't care if it's Hans Zimmer, John Williams or James Horner. Mike did Horner. And Mike provided proof. Some people were mad at that, but nevertheless, the proof still stands. And I haven't seen him talk anywhere about what Horner did only to respond "go to my website/go watch my class if you want to know more".

    I asked if it was weird when people choose a side which has more credentials in an argument where neither side presents any proof. Hint: it's not. The sole purpose of that statement is that you should choose your battles if you're going into one without any evidence. Why would Hans need evidence? He signed the piece, it's his name on the soundtrack, etc. He's innocent until proven guilty. You need to prove he's lying if you wish for your statement to stand without getting shot down and stomped all over. So where's the proof?

    It's no secret that Hans employs dozens of people, he talks about it regularly. But you don't know what exactly they do on a piece. So until someone presents some evidence, if Hans says he wrote it all, he wrote it all. Because you can't prove him lying. And that's not a battle you can win. And that's okay, it's also utterly unimportant in the grand scale of things.

    And what about young composers finding out about John Williams and that he writes and orchestrates all his music in a room with only a piano, pen and paper, and manages 2 minutes of fully orchestrated music per day? What about young singers looking up to Rihanna and thinking that's a standard? Is that not a standard that's, in the eyes of many, impossible to meet? What's with all the "Rihanna is a goddess" comments on YouTube when she neither wrote nor produced the song? Why are the people who did write and produce it not credited in the YouTube video? It's the same thing as Hans, is it not?

    People usually sign contracts. I still do some ghost production in electronic music (used to do a lot more) and it kind of varies on what exactly I do. Sometimes I get a starting point or an idea, sometimes I'm just piecing together someone else's ideas, and sometimes I do everything from scratch. My clients never mention me and I'm not allowed to talk any details about either my clients or the music I worked on - I never get any credit. They all sign it as their own and when asked, they all say they did it themselves. It's one of the main drives in that business since live DJ acts don't really require much technical knowledge or proficiency, you just have to be an entertaining personality. If I had anything against that, I wouldn't be signing those contracts nor be in this business. I do get paid, and everything is fine. I'm comfortable sitting at home in my studio and getting paid to do that.

    People don't deserve credit, they deserve what's in their contract. No need to lose sleep over them not getting credits, I'm sure they get exactly what they signed up for. :) And you'd be surprised how many people are perfectly fine with their names not being in the credits or widely known. They're known where they need to be known.
  20. #40 Kyle Judkins, May 4, 2018
    Last edited: May 4, 2018
    edit: I'll just let the subject die.

    wasn't worth the time to me before, still not worth it to me now.

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