1. Didja accidentally blow through the whole, "We're using our real names" thing on registration? No problem, just send me (Mike) a Conversation message and I'll get you sorted, by which I mean hammered-into-obedient-line because I'm SO about having a lot of individuality-destroying, oppressive shit all over my forum.
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Darth Trump

Discussion in 'The RedBanned Bar & Grill' started by Doug Gibson, Sep 5, 2017.

  1. Oh come one guys..dont let schit politic talk destroy musicianship talk between us. I hate poltics..it only leads to grief.
    Paul T McGraw likes this.
  2. No, I cannot do that. Politics is not the biggest thing in my life, but for sure I acknowledge it is sometimes more important than film music! And if I see someone posting about the whites being the true victims of bias and prejudice in the USA I just cannot talk to him about VSTs, composition and other stuff like that. There simply are some limits ... The same goes for those AFD-fools in Germany, which luckily are a minority here!
  3. #23 Paul T McGraw, Jan 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
    Well, everything I said, you just proved. So you agree that you "look down on Trump supporters", especially Paul T. McGraw, right? Look up condescending. Your attitude is condescending. My asking you to look it up is condescending. Normally it is considered a "bad thing" except when practiced by leftists. You just cannot tolerate anyone having a slightly different opinion than your own, God forbid a totally OPPOSED opinion to yours. Only you know what is right and best for everyone. Look up self-righteous. Unlike you, I think that lots of people have lots of different opinions and fine gradations of support or opposition to President Trump. I do not automatically look down on everyone who disagrees with me. But for you, I could be persuaded to make an exception. "Educated conservatives"? I have three college degrees. "Foe image"? Read your own post, especially that first two sentences, if you can get past the grammatical errors.

    And let me repeat, there is only one group of people in the USA who are systematically, legally, discriminated against, and that is white men. That is a fact. If you, like every ethical thinking person believes in equality and fairness, please contact the DNC and insist that they reverse their policy against hiring straight white men. See the link.

  4. Well, you just proved me right again! I am on a roll here. Even when you are factually in the wrong, you refuse to acknowledge facts, and can not engage in civil discourse. Typical leftist. Are you also a member of ANTIFA?
  5. I tried to not to post but........

    I'll give Paul and his son some advice on racism seeing as how we are in the same boat and have been persecuted, harassed, threatened, assaulted, and detained by police because of the color our skin. I'm sure all of that was as difficult for you and your son as it was for me when I experienced it.

    In every room I've ever been in (academically and professionally) there has been someone who either thinks I don't belong there because I am black, or they think I am there because I AM black. My dad taught me early on (at around 13 years old) how to deal with that:

    Be better, smarter, sharper, and faster than EVERYONE in that room. Grandma used to call that, pulling oneself up by the bootstraps. It doesn't get more conservative than that.

    I'm where I am today because I am the smartest, sharpest, fastest, and best prepared person in the room (except when it comes to composing....still working on that).

    So to that I say, damn "affirmative action".....for anyone.
  6. I know what you mean. There is no such thing as civil discourse any longer. I should have known better. I did know better. Anyhow, loved your Rossini.
  7. Despite the sarcasm, I wish only good things for you and your kids. I was 10 years old when I heard Dr. King give his "I have a Dream" speech. If only we could have a world where everyone was judged on the content of their character, and not on the color of their skin, this world would be a much happier place. However, it is illegal to discriminate against blacks. And the full power of the US government is going to come down hard on anyone who does so. It is not illegal to discriminate against white men, and no one helps us when we are discriminated against.

    You will probably ignore this, but if normalized by rate of criminal conduct, blacks are less likely to be shot by police than whites. The problem is not with the police, but with a culture of criminality.
  8. Just as a reminder: RedBanned is the place to discuss music, politics, religion, and any fucking thing else you want to discuss without fear of being censored - the one caveat being: Don't be an idiot; make an argument. Make a rational, considered argument. Have a position you can defend, intellectually, and do so. Learning to control our emotions should be as elementary a skill as any, and if it's not, bone-up.

    Now, to the topic at hand: Paul is correct that whites are more put-upon and victimized than any other group in the country by a mile. It just also happens to be that because we're the controlling power, it doesn't amount to much, practically speaking. In short, it's lonely at the top. You can say the most heinous shit you want to about whites and nobody will say a thing, because at the end of the day... Now, with shifting demographics, this may be changing, and there are other issues regarding criminal justice and socially normative standards which are conflating the issues and making these sorts of statements harder to defend. But in truth, if you could choose anybody to be in the United States tomorrow, choose a white man, preferably middle to upper-middle-class. We've got the best deal.

    That said, in regards to black people (I've said this before): I'm 45. In the whole of my 45 years there have always been countless millions of black people successful in every walk of life; doctors, lawyers, physicists, astronauts, engineers, CEOs, politicians, Presidents, teachers, entrepreneurs, and yes, athletes and entertainers. They come from all the same cities and all the same towns as all the other black people. There isn't some White Privilege Fairy which rides through Compton at night blessing the occasional Oprah Winfrey or Neil DeGrasse Tyson. They make it on their own. Because you can, in America.

    It is not surprising to find you have a black lawyer or doctor; this isn't greeted with hushed whispers of incredulity. Successful blacks are part of the foundational backbone of the society, in every aspect of society and have been for my entire life. So if there's racism, it apparently has absolutely zero impact on those who want to make it in this country. Zero. Zip. Nada. It's either that, or you minimize the successes of every one of those countless millions of people as being undeserved or non-existent, both of which are factually untrue and racist. Racism is a subset of the concept of tribal organization, which is how human societies have and always will be organized. It will always exist, as we will always effortlessly form groups and foster the concept of the other. (This is also why the concept of "peace" is an entirely invented concept with no precedent in Nature. Nature has balance and symbiosis, but no peace as we use the term. Don't get started on how humans are superior to nature; that ways lies ruination.). All of this is to be celebrated. Black people make it to the tip-toppiest of tops every day. They have unique challenges, like, say, being disproportionately held accountable for the disproportionally-held incidences of violence within the community. But what else is new? We ALL have unique challenges. I have the unique challenge of not looking like a supermodel and having horrific eye-sight, at least one of which means I'm not allowed to be a fighter pilot. Shit happens, and inequality isn't inequity.

    Donald Trump is President. The world hasn't ended. The market is up, consumer confidence is soaring. ISIS is routed and on the run for the first time in a decade. Illegals are deporting themselves, manufacturing is returning to the country, and women are enjoying the greatest season of justice against sexual assault in the history of the world. And all this under a 24/7 barrage of hysteria and siege like no sitting President before has ever endured. It's fine to keep recycling end-of-the-world proclamations day-in-and-day-out like some nuclear THX goat bleating through an air-raid siren, but I'm reminded of the story of the boy who cried wolf 11 billion times. My advice is, try to enjoy it, or it's going to be a long 7 years. Life. Is. Good. And if you don't think so, I suggest you stop watching the "news," which isn't.

    Paul T McGraw likes this.
  9. Hi Mike,

    Your comments are way too sensible for this discussion. Also intelligently nuanced. Didn't you get the memo about no more nuance? But seriously, thank the Lord you don't have to depend on Hollywood for a living. It will be interesting to see how folks react.

  10. #31 Mike Verta, Jan 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
    @Fritz von Flotow if you have an argument, make it! Debate is a win-win for all involved; it either exposes the flaws in our logic and reasoning, or helps us strengthen the merits of our position. If we want to be on the wisest side of an issue, we can only know so by field-testing it and subjecting it to opposition.

    @Paul T McGraw Been here 30 years. I can dance through minefields blindfolded. Plus, I have an I-don't-give-a-shit cloak, which is virtually impenetrable. No worries.
    Alexander Schiborr likes this.
  11. Mike
    Almost everything you say here is correct. The world is still here (not because of Trump), The market is up (was already up before Trump but the tax bill helped, so check for Trump). Consumer confidence up (debatable if any president has an effect on that but we'll give it Trump). ISIS on the run (not because of Trump.....trust me on this one). Manufacturing returning to the country (debatable http://fortune.com/2017/03/29/president-trump-job-claims-fact-check/). And #MeToo happened in part because of Trump but for the wrong reasons so that is a -1. I'll do one better; A lot of my income is passive so the capital gains portion of tax "reform" is going to help me tremendously so another +1 for Delta Tango.

    My problem is and always will be the courting of racial tension. It leads to issues that don't show up in statistics. Kids calling my children dumb n*s on the school bus and then chanting USA and MAGA. My kids were and always will be prepared. They know the difference between questions, curiosity, and debate and strait up ignorance. They know because I know the world they will grow up in and continue to arm them. They know when to listen and learn and when to disengage from anger and hate.

    I never have and never will mention "white privilege". I never have and never will accept logic that anyone should be given anything because of their race. I only argue that discrimination and violence because of race is wrong. That is not a pro-black or pro-white statement.

    Paul, I don't know what happened to your son, but there is no basis for this statement right here.

    You can't defend this intellectually as @Mike Verta says. If it's a joke it's a very bad one. I have recruited, interviewed, and hired 20 or so engineers and technicians for State of all races. I've never seen this. I'll engage in the discussion but you'll have to do better than quoting The Dailywire.

    And just an honest (no sarcasm) acknowledgment; When you say something like this:
    to a black man that works for the US Department of State, the insinuation (intentional or not) is that I am where I am because of affirmative action. That becomes personal. That is not political correctness talking, that is just human nature. This is why nuance, as you yourself said, is so important.
  12. There really does not have to be a "grand theory of society". The original question is wether the president is inclined to prejudge people solely on their race.

    Simple Yes/No question: Has anyone here ever been sued by the Justice Department for Racial Discrimination ?

    If so, has anyone here then settled the case to avoid going to court ?

    Donnie T would have to tick yes to both. Those are facts.


    Brevity is the soul of wit.
  13. #34 Mike Verta, Jan 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
    Gharun -

    Donald Trump could cure cancer and people would say it's because the cancer wanted to get away from him. Trust me, I'm not expecting you or anybody else to concede he's done anything positive. Anything wrong, it's his fault, yes; anything right, "he didn't build that." I tapped out of that rigged game even before I played it.

    As for ignorant kids of ignorant parents calling your kids names, well ignorants going to ignorant. You can tell your boys that at least when those white kids grow up, they'll lose their livelihoods in microseconds over anything even remotely construed as racist on their part (like saying black people tend to be pretty good at sports), so it all works out now. Today's ignorant MAGA-shouting white kid is tomorrow's pack-up-everything-in-your-desk,-whitey-we've-just-heard-another-hearsay-rumor-about-you unemployed dude with no country. It all comes out in the wash.

    Except for affirmative action, which is an insult to the countless millions of blacks successful in every conceivable walk of life, who earned it, and deserve it, and weren't handed it through quotas or affirmative action. Just earned it, as one can, in the USA. Life ain't perfect, but in all of human history, now is about as close to it as one could ever possibly expect. Try life 200-10,000 years ago for perspective on that. We have ONLY first-world problems.

    Holy shit is that specious, and you know better. For those who don't: accusations aren't proof of guilt, and neither are settlements. Specious and strawman. We don't truck with logical fallacies, that's my line, brother. If my 7-year-old doesn't get away with it, neither do any of us here. No logical fallacies allowed.
  14. Gharum,

    No you cannot shut me down by claiming "it's personal" and your attempt to do so does you no credit. Neither statement you quoted was a joke.In fact your attempt to marginalize and discredit the discrimination my son experienced is highly offensive. Imagine if it happened to your child.

    Yes, I can defend my statement that more than 90% of federal government employees are democrats. And you can check the numbers for State yourself. Do you think the FEC is trustworthy? After all, it IS a federal bureaucracy. According to the FEC 95% of federal worker political contributions went to democrats in 2016. Here is an article from the Hill, not a conservative publication. You can check the numbers for State yourself. You could even go directly to the source.


    I will tell everyone and anyone about what happened to my son. I have no idea how you got your job. And I have made no statement regarding you personally. Who do you think affirmative action is designed to hurt? Are you just now finding out that affirmative action hurts white men and no one else? Who did you think was being pushed aside?

    By the way, no one has questioned the facts behind the ad run by the DNC. There is even a copy of the ad in the article.

  15. Couple of mildly random notes:

    1. I'm not sure what issue we're debating here. "Trump" embodies such a large pile of various issues that it's nigh on impossible to unpack. Couple of things were brought up here so far that are all complex issues in of themselves. While I believe we can all be adults here, I can also see this thread make a turn for the worse simply because no clear subject has been outlined, or various subjects are being thrown together. I can't force people (and wouldn't want to) to make specific threads about specific issues they want to debate, but I'd definitely encourage people to do so if they feel like having a discussion.

    2. The one thing I miss most in any modern debate is nuance. I miss it on both sides of the argument. I think any political discussion should start with acknowledging that no left or right-winger is the same and that people have their own complex beliefs and values. It's far, far to easy to lump people into large piles and make sweeping statements that only divide us more.

    3. I'm not going to claim I'm immune to this but... so often opposing political views are conflated with personal attacks. I think that trying to enter a debate with the intention of "winning" or trying to convince the other party is the wrong attitude. I'm more interested in trying to understand why someone holds certain values and if I can see the world through their eyes for a moment, even if I don't align with their views. Again, not saying I always succeed at this, but I've found it to be a much less infuriating way to approach any kind of debate. Agreeing to disagree is in my view a perfectly acceptable outcome and I can't for the life of me see how any such disagreement would affect my ability/willingness to help others on this forum in the limited way(s) that I can.

    4. Alternatively, completely avoiding political and religious debate is also generally a healthy attitude on public forums. I wish it wasn't this way, but I've seen things go South (or North, whatever the saying is) too often to have much confidence that it'll be different here. Sometimes it's just too easy to forget that there's a really human being on the other end.

    Anyway, I really have only one burning question now and that is: what the hell are we even debating?. Let's unpack this.
  16. I have no problem with organic and evolving debate, but to your point, Matthias, I'd say: what's the point of arguing who's been marginalized worse? We are all unified in being equally screwed one or way another by a system that was bought and paid for long ago. Still, we do alright.

    For what it's worth, on the Care-O-Meter, which measures things directly relevant to my life, my current list looks like this:

    1) Hoping Draco's cough is getting better.
    2) Hoping we get the Wednesday slot for Little League Practice
    3) Seriously need to get my hard drives backed up.
    560) Are there bugs in the walls?
    45,118) SOMETHING's gotta rhyme with orange!
    1,823,718) Something Donald Trump did/said.

    As for Gharun and Paul, I would be impressed if you guys switched positions for a round and debated the other's viewpoint.
  17. But Mike,

    I thought we were trying to Make America Great AGAIN!;). Jokes aside, we're talking the same language on affirmative action.

    Matthias - I'm talking affirmative action and debating that 90% of the federal government are leftists.

    Paul not trying to shut you down. By all means continue. There never should have been and never should be affirmative action. Why do we need affirmative action for any American? Please explain.

    You are wrong, here. You didn't say Democrats before, you said "Leftists" so now you are changing your story. Plus your linked article says:

    Of the roughly $2 million that federal workers from 14 agencies spent on presidential politics by the end of September, about $1.9 million, or 95 percent, went to the Democratic nominee’s campaign, according to an analysis by The Hill.

    It doesn't say 90% of federal workers are democrates.....it says 90% of federal workers who donated did so to the Dems. Big difference. Maybe they just didn't like this crop of GOP candidates.
  18. #39 Gharun Lacy, Jan 6, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
    Challenge excepted:

    Matthias Calis likes this.
  19. @Mike Verta to #45,118 on your care-o-meter Syringes and Hinges rhyme with Oranges if you skew the pronounciation a little.

    EDIT: @Gharun Lacy Ninja'd me.

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