1. Didja accidentally blow through the whole, "We're using our real names" thing on registration? No problem, just send me (Mike) a Conversation message and I'll get you sorted, by which I mean hammered-into-obedient-line because I'm SO about having a lot of individuality-destroying, oppressive shit all over my forum.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. You're only as good as the harshest criticism you're willing to hear.
    Dismiss Notice

40 months since my last "Mock-up"

Discussion in 'Tips, Tricks & Talk' started by Doug Gibson, Nov 24, 2017.

  1. I am a hobbyist writing classical tonal concert music so I have very little hope of ever getting a live performance, and no hope of ever making any money from my compositions. If I write some chamber music I could pay for a recording with live musicians, but once again would not expect to make any money from composing. So short of hiring my own musicians, if I want to hear something close to what I have written, samples are my only option.

    And samples have also become my means of personal musical expression. At my age my skills with playing cello and trombone will never again be equal to what they once were. In fact it is so depressing to try that I am thinking of selling my instruments. But with samples I can not only play cello and trombone, but enjoy playing every instrument in the orchestra!

    The bad news is that I can't help anyone with their career. The good news is, I will not be in competition with anyone for paying gigs! :)
     
    Doug Gibson likes this.
  2. Great thread guys. Lots of insight and real talk. I'm in the same boat as @Paul T McGraw. I never had (and still don't have) any allusions (or delusions depending on how you look at it) at making money composing. For me the "Mock Up" is like training wheels and the closest thing I'm going to get to hearing my ideas come to life. I'm literally not joking when I say "I trade options and futures to fund my composition addiction". I'm am not allowed to buy a library or piece of gear unless trading pays for it, otherwise my kids wouldn't go to college. I don't have the ballz (or the skills, background, training, knowledge:rolleyes:) that you guys have to jump off that ledge and do this for a living. I can't even polish pooh like @Aaron Venture. I have so much admiration for @Alexander Schiborr and @Doug Gibson for going out there and doing the damn thing. I mean, we are all watching as Alexander gets better and better by the week.

    So until I hit the lottery, become Secretary of State:eek:, or short the S&P just before the next market crash.........it's all samples (and hanging out on Redbanned) for me:(.
     
    Doug Gibson and Paul T McGraw like this.

  3. Hey Garun ! Thanks for your reply. BTW, how is your flute piece in Ab minor going ? Send me an update when you can.

    I think everything you and Paul mentioned is wonderful. I am all for a composing addiction.

    I don't have much more to say about "career" stuff other than this seems like a apt metaphor. You have to be as crazy as these two.





    Another reason I asked this question originally was based on my own experience teaching. I have had more than one, very ambitious BTW, person whom I would give a scene from a movie to score. The next week they show up, I ask "how did it go"

    I simply listen like a therapist to how one thing connected to another was not working, so they had to re-design their template, or rescript something etc... thus.... they did not get a chance to write anything.

    I wonder how much of a connection there is between having these large templates, and "orchestrating too soon". I mean if I shelled out all this money for XYZ ....... I am going to want to use it, and not just write out a little piano sketch.

    It's an emotional thing. I am sure I could make a case to you as an investor, that staying out for 5 years, and focusing only on your piano playing, and pencil and paper composing could make a lot of sense. In 5 years new libraries that sound better, and easier to use will be out. The computer you buy will be more powerful and might even cost less than today's prices. When I purchased the first EWQLSO I had to have two Mac pro's running. Each was about $4,000. I can run the same or even larger template on my laptop and mac mini which costs about 25% of what I paid in 2004. You could set up a 529 (if you have not) and the compound interest from all your "wolf of Wall st." shit means your kids are going to college and can buy a bong

    Having a happy place to write music and hear back is a beautiful and wonderful thing.

    I just wonder how much fear gets into people. Ie. Hans Zimmer does it so I must. Except they don't have 1/2 his talent. No one hires Hans for a string library. Same with TSFH. Even piano covers of TSFH get about a million likes on youtube. Plus, they don't use the samples only as the final step.

    I am rambling now. I wish you all the best

    Doug
     
  4. upload_2017-11-26_21-29-27.png

    What's up @Doug Gibson? The Ab piece is done. I worked out some of the voice leading (pencil and paper, of course) as well as a few different orchestration options for the the second A section. What I determined is that the idea itself just wasn't that compelling. My favorite part was the all brass C section and I've really been playing with that sound ever since, writing 4 bar and 8 bar brass pieces exploring the warmer side of a trombone choir. I'll throw a mix on it and post it next weekend but I think my development skills are still too far off to make it coherent and compelling. When one needs a B and C section to keep things going, it's time to work harder on the modulation skills and sensibility.

    You'd be proud of me. Black Friday came and went and I didn't buy one new library or plug in. Instead I transcribed Ramin Djawadi's Game of Thrones theme. Not the most complex or enlightened piece but I was traveling and away from a keyboard so It was a few hours well spent.

    I'm transcribing the Superman March now. Never knew that the first chord in the fanfare was an AMaj7. I've been playing it as an A Maj triad for years.

    Throw a scene at me. It may take me a few weeks to score it but I love the exercise. I've got a few weeks in one place. As long as the US Embassy remains in Tel Aviv and doesn't move to Jerusalem next month, I shouldn't have to travel until the new year. If it moves I've got bigger problems:eek:.

    I've got none. You pick it. Fear; pride; shame...I'm completely devoid. Too old, and I've been through too much, LOL! Careless Whisper, brother! ;)
     
    Doug Gibson likes this.
  5. #25 Tino Danielzik, Nov 26, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
    Here is a little story: I'm friends with the local music school director, a few years ago he called me and asked me to write something for their children orchestra, payed! He gave me the e-mail address of the orchestra's conductor to talk about the details. I wrote the mail and got the answer that there is no place for such a stupid idea, of course she said it in a nice way like "[...] we don't have the time for your music in our season schedule and we don't have the time in the foreseeable future [...]".

    This little story sums up the situation here in Germany, almost no one gets the chance to work with real musicians here. Mike always says, go to colleges, get students a pizza and they will play for you, well not here, they just respond with their build in pretentious look that says "I just play Beethoven, Mozart, and..., you know, the worthy stuff" and that's it. They love artistic bullying. So, if I am not allowed to write some stupid little cue for some kids from some stupid little community music school, then I have to spend an enormous amount of money to realize the things that I love virtually.
    It's the same with a romantic/sexual relationship, if no one is interested in you, you can either do it yourself very cheap or you can pay for it to get as close to the original experience as possible. Well, for my part I know what I spend my money on.
     
  6. Hi Tino

    Wow, really interesting to read your answer. Believe me I know about snobbish conductors.

    Sorry if I always go on about NYC, but an analogy comes to mind.

    When you live here, and speak to people who have lived here all their lives you find a few "camps".

    1. Those who just love it. Yes, they endure frustrations with the place, but there is no place they would rather live.
    2. Those who hate it, but have a fear of moving. Like getting kicked out of Rome there is this myth that NYC is the center of the world, and if it's worth knowing about it is here.
    3. Those who try and have two lives: These people move about 2 hours away, and commute so they can work in the city/live in a town.
    4. Those who simply say: Fuck it.... I'm out of here.

    My personal opinion is: 1 and 4 are the happiest. I have met many composers who worked with a real group, then decided to use their mock-up as the final result. They love having control over everything. That's great. Certainly there is a demand for this too.

    I'm # 4 with samples. Note performer is fine for me, or as I mentioned I will simply hire someone else to do the mock-up for me. (Hey, I have ghostwritten for composers before, so dishing out a mock-up is no big deal to me.)

    I think 2 and 3 are the toughest. But.... everyone needs to work these things out themselves.

    I try and keep it simple. My work either gives me energy or takes it away. I try to stay in the positive energy side and cut out the things I feel drain my joy and passion for making music. That's all.

    How is your woodwind piece going ?
     
    Alexander Schiborr likes this.
  7. I could barley focus on what you wrote as I was laughing at the picture.


    I liked it.

    Sure. It has to be offline of course, and as long as you don't publicly post them I am happy to. What kind of genre/ scene ?

    If it does, at least you will be in a city with one of the best music training programs in the world.

    http://aldwell.com/about.htm

    Might want to grab a few lessons before things hit the fan.

    Ahh yes. You know..... I don't think the milk actually fooled the cashier. I had a Pink Floyd t-shirt on.

    More seriously though, the piece Mike posted was just a dude and his Sax. Some times having self imposed limitations is a good thing. It can create focus.
     

  8. Sound of breaks screeching ......................

    Hold up: I just read this.

    Do it myself very cheap ? Dude, who are you paying? It's always been free or "on the house" over here.

    $5 is cheap. If I can make $5 off myself I wanna know about this. A revolution !!
     
  9. Haha, well you know, it always costs you at least the tissue afterwards, right? That's cheap. Except someone uses his shorts or socks, than it's free, you have to wash it anyway at some point. :D

    You know, I'm not a sample addict, I always try to avoid samples for the actual writing, but when it comes to make a good demo out of it I will turn on my PC, and if there are some good samples to help me make my music sound better so I can post it on YouTube and SoundCloud I am fine with it as long as some people enjoy it. So I guess I am in camp #3. As long as I can write and develop my music without samples but can earn some money by using them and serve a client, I am good. Again, if I would have access to good musicians I wouldn't do mock-ups, just put the shit into Sibelius and done, but again, as long as there is no chance for me to work with a real ensemble I will use samples. But as you said, everyone needs to work these things out themselves. I am always for "co-existing", old and new, nostalgic and futuristic, retro and modern, hate and love, tolerance and intolerance, ugliness and beauty (have to rethink this one), etc.... ;)
     
  10. Oh its damn true..it is damn true..this experience in a similiar way happened to me years ago where I was going out late night in a bar where I had a couple of beers. Sitting there on the couch I saw the couch right next to me people sitting who were musicians fromt he local symphonic philharmony talking about their jobs, gigs and music. I thought..lets try to say hello and get in touch with them. So I went over and introduced myself and told them that what I am a composer for media and actual starting out with my business (yes that were the earlier days where just started). Then one of the guys asked me how or what kind of music I am doing, so I explained to them a little bit my kind of workflow, also that I am doing music with the assist of a computer and virtual instruments. Literally as I said that, you could see an big "eye rolling" thing and the talk with them was pretty much done. I felt even that from that point on they seem to ignore anything what I said in that regards. So..what was the conclusion for me at that point?
    Well it was dissapointing for me to see how close minded actuall musians of the philharmony can be just because I said that I am doing music with the help of modern technology. This experience got stuck into my brain for quite the next days and got me a little angry which in the end I thought: you know what, fuck you and elitist thinking of how a real composer should write his music like. And at that point in my life I was nowhere like I am now, but..I was having there already a lot of dedication and was very open minded to talk to other musicans. But this event told me that I should better avoid trying to contact orchestras around here. And what Tino sais: Here in Germany the scene is much more: Oh yeah we are only doing the Beethoven and Mozart Shit, so better get away with your shitty filmmusic and anyways: Who am I? Ecspecially at that point back in 2012: No Name with not one legit reference.
     
    Paul T McGraw likes this.
  11. #31 Paul T McGraw, Nov 27, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
    There are some really interesting posts in this thread. It is amazing that we can come together from literally all over the world and share these experiences. And @Tino Danielzik judging by your picture you seem like a nice looking young person, so speaking as a Grandpa, I think you will find the right person for you.

    Here is an interesting question. What if we lived in an alternate universe where there are no computers, but a very good community orchestra in every town and suburb, so you could have access to live musicians whenever you have something new for them to play? And since they are volunteers they would not be expecting any money. They might even pay you for your new composition. (Orchestras used to actually commission new music.) But no computers at all. So @Doug Gibson not even Sibelius with NotePerformer, no computers at all. Would you rather live in this universe or in the alternate, no computer universe?
     
  12. #32 Doug Gibson, Nov 27, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
    Of course the one with real people. Sibelius and Noteperformer are not significant for me. Only piano, pencil paper. Look it helps with the logistics of not having to write out each violin part 5 times and number of other laborious aspects of performance. But not the creation and realization.

    All of my personal practice these days is towards not needing any computer playback to hear music.
     
  13. #33 Paul T McGraw, Nov 27, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
    Having done the copying out of parts myself many times in the years before computers or even cheap copies I would be torn about which world would be better for me personally. I think the no computer universe would be better for humanity, but I would have a really, really hard time giving up my music computer.

    Yes, in the 1970's there were no cheap copies. You had to go to a print shop for copies, and they were anything but cheap. It is amazing how much things have changed in just 40 years.
     
    Doug Gibson likes this.
  14. I think of all the technology the hardest for me would be what I'll call "Tape Recording". I often simply hit record when I sit at the piano
    and improvise then transcribe out what I played. Same with the transcribing side of things.

    Do you know about the documentary where Glenn Gould asks a very similar question ?

     
    Paul T McGraw likes this.
  15. #35 Gharun Lacy, Nov 27, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
    This thread keeps getting better and better. I gravitate toward the action stuff so I want to force myself out of that and work something different, preferably something with some dialog. Never really worked around dialog before so that should be a fun exercise. Might even try to go sampleless and work all piano......scary thought!

    You can hit me at [email protected]

    Thanks for the link to the Aldwell Center. I usually split my time between J-Town and Tel Aviv when in Israel but if there is any way I can squeeze in a lesson or two in while I'm there I will absolutely take advantage.
     
  16. @Doug Gibson I wanted to ask a couple of clarifying questions about your path, your decision/determination to focus on the type of music and project you wanted to work with.

    1. When you made the decision to focus on/hunt out jobs that were non-mockup (only live musicians, etc), how many existing clients did you have at that point who were hiring you for those types of gigs?

    2. When you started looking for work in those camps, how did you begin to make those inroads/find those people?

    3. How long did it take you before you began finding actual paid work at the level/rate that you wanted, in the style of work that you wanted? (Weeks, Months, etc)?

    4. What did you do to supplement your income as you were growing that aspect of your business?

    I hope I'm asking these questions clearly, I'm genuinely curious as to how you managed to dive deep/laser focus on only writing under these conditions/working with these projects, and I am interested to know in how you built that career up, how long it took, and if there were any difficulties getting turned down/not finding any interest from composers that would need your services.

    Thank you!

    Mike
     
    Matthias Fluor likes this.
  17. @Doug Gibson I had not seen the video of the interview previously. Interesting interview. and somewhat similar in concept to my little scenario, except much more consequential in significance of course.
     
  18. Just to add something to my comment: I highly value Beethoven and Mozart..not that someone take that wrong with that shit terminus there. I am just saying..back to topic..
    Interested also in the others, but cool thread and very informative.
     
    Paul T McGraw likes this.
  19. Sure thing
     
  20. Hello Mike

    Of course I am very happy to answer any questions. The only thing is I might need to just record myself (like Alexander does) speaking as it will take a while to write.

    I can bullet point it now, but am happy to expand on this in an audio recording later:


    Well since I fly solo it was only one client at a time. The difference though was I began getting more work as an orchestrator, thus I could begin stepping out of having to do tons of mock-ups. Also I learned through a lot of pain of taking on projects that in the end I was not really proud of having worked on.

    I think it was two/three things. 1.) Having a complementary skill set. Let me offer a specific example. I think you are in Philly ?
    For example Philly Jazz pianist Sumi Tonooka (http://sumitonooka.com) contacted me after getting selected for the American Composers
    Orchestra Jazz workshop. She referred like 4-5 other pro jazz musicians who were exploring crossing over into orchestration. This lead me to coach one of her friends writing a piece for the Detroit Symphony...etc..etc.

    So word of mouth.

    The other thing.....was google. If you google music composition lessons NYC you should find me first page. That really did make a difference. Silly, but true.

    I think in general for anyone just opening up shop, or moving to LA NYC etc. it will take 5 years. Once I land a few gigs I was happy with the pay level, it was then the frequency. I would get a gig, finish it.... then stress about the next one. I have been very fortunate the past 4 years have been pretty non-stop. I also had more than a few moments of extreme burnout.

    Well I still teach privately composition. I love it. I still get work doing score prep, and orchestration, and I have done a few composer residencies. NYC music services hires me a lot. Most people I know have to have a few branches/streams of income.

    Ahh .... did you watch the video I posted above on what it's like trying to be a composer. (for me at least)

    I'll try and record the spoken word response soon. I am totally happy to share info that might be of use to you. I just.... well I have to manage the time.

    Thanks for your interest, and I'll aim to get you a better reply.

    Wishing you all the best.

    Doug
     
    Mike Worth likes this.

Share This Page